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Dec-17-2009 19:06printcomments

The Debate Over Child Abuse in Oregon's Ukrainian Community

People who move here should be educated about U.S. law and culture.

Oak tree without leaves
Oak tree without leaves. Hanging from a limb, an empty swing yearns to hear children's happy voices playing in the warm Summer months. Charcoal and pencil 14 x 16 inches (original sold). Prints available.

(SALEM, Ore.) - Stories we have published about a Ukrainian immigrant couple convicted of abusing their children in Salem, are bringing more story comments than we are accustomed to, and our stories receive comments constantly. Unlike other media outlets, Salem-News.com comments are all approved or disapproved by living people.

40-year old Alexander Kozlov and 39-year old Lyudmila Kozlov, were sentenced to seven years behind bars for the abuse they inflicted upon their six children. The couple became sort of a courtroom spectacle, waiving their right to a free public defender because "God" was their attorney, and ultimately receiving a sentence much longer than anyone expected.

The heart of the matter is that many people who are associated with the couple rally behind what they see as a God given right to beat their offspring illegally.

Many of these individuals say the couple did absolutely nothing wrong, others admit that they went over the line but contend that keeping the children and their parents together is paramount.

The children actually fled their parents' custody to report the six years of abuse in the U.S. to police in Salem.

As far as the contrast in the comments, I am very straightforward as the writer of most of the articles and the News Editor of Salem-News.com, in stating that I do not support child abuse. This seems like a no-brainer to most, but believe me, I have never argued with so many over such a seemingly obvious point. In fact, it is the only story in my 20 years of news reporting that involves child abuse advocates en masse.

The important part of this, is that the comments are changing, slowly but surely, and it seems like this community is learning that what the Kozlovs did was not right, and that they could have better represented themselves in court, and thus received a lesser sentence.

U.S. courts are sensitive to the idea of remorse. If a judge believes that a defendant understands they are wrong, it will help the outcome for the person on trial. If the defendant is disrespectful and unrepentant, then the sentence will be longer, almost every time.

The big picture tragedy is that people are allowed to move here legally, and they receive absolutely no instruction apparently, in American law. People should be educated about law and culture and what is expected of them - in this case it appears that they were not, and it has cost many people a great deal.

The worst of the comments have revolved around the children themselves, and based on the comments it appears clear that the church community that this family was part of, is soundly and unequivocally condemning of the children for seeking refuge from the the years of abuse.

Maybe, hopefully, there are people in the church who understand what is really going on, I am not sure. In fact I have been told that this church is the reason the family is here in the first place, and it is my understanding that the minister helped basically convict them in court by bringing the same strange logic into play, up to and including claiming that the evidence in the case, actual photos of the various injuries on the children, had been "photoshopped".

The Comments

I have to state again that we have been very surprised by the hundreds of comments that strictly support the parents, holding the children responsible for their own abuse. I am indebted to the people who understand how wrong child abuse is, and for the comments they make.

Here is a supportive comment, this one came from a Salem-News.com visitor named Andrai: "Great article, great job on this, you are a great American, and this needs to be told cause I came to America in 1991 and remember my parents beating us all, trying to cover it up by making us skip school so the gym teacher or someone wouldn't see it, and I still can't believe it, and would never say I deserved it. Great job on reporting, I can't thank you enough cause there are thousands of kids that are being abused every day helpless helpless, and dont know where to turn. This might offend the Old country folks but we must not be scared to stick our nose in to this subject, and let Homeland Security look in to this, and leave peaceful Americans alone."

Sara wrote, "This is a sad story. But, it is good lesson for all Russian/Ukrainian community. Be honest the parents are guilty. We all know the Bible not teach that way to discipline the kids. I feel sorry for the kids and ashamed for people who misinterpret the Bible."

Angelina wrote, "I was also raised in a family of 10 kids.. dad was really set on that kind of punishment and mom was soft, kind, and tried to stand up to him. Now after having two kids of my own... I do believe in spanking, but i think if you are still spanking after 5 years of age or before, I think you should already know by then that you are doing something wrong!"

Oregon Reader left this comment: "A seven year sentence seems somewhat excessive in this case, however without remorse, I guess the judge found no other option to show, clearly, how disappointed he was in the actions. This really is a sad case."

Unknown takes the other side of the issue with: "These kids are teenagers whom obviously have no respect for their parents. If the girl's parents didn't let her get a haircut than she should have listened. I myself am a Christian and yeah in the Bible is says that you should hit your kid w/ a rod, and to whom that aren't Christians, then you don't understand that hitting your kid w/ a rod or spanking them is called discipline. Those kids really are messed up because now they just ruined their parents lives, their brothers and sister's lives and their own lives. Their parents are in jail and the kids don't feel guilty whatsoever. I personally think that the parents should be found Not Guilty bc all they did was discipline their kids. I DON'T feel sorry for those kids what SO ever (expect for the little baby)."

This is more along the lines of the earlier comments, prior to the conviction, and they are starting to fade away. Other stories we have run include a contribution from a Ukrainian/American who was also severely abused as a child.

The comments cited above were corrected for spelling and grammar and punctuation only. For those following this story, please use this story for comments about the Koslovs in the future if and when possible.

=================================================
Tim King is a former U.S. Marine with twenty years of experience on the west coast as a television news producer, photojournalist, reporter and assignment editor. In addition to his role as a war correspondent, this Los Angeles native serves as Salem-News.com's Executive News Editor.
Tim spent the winter of 2006/07 covering the war in Afghanistan, and he was in Iraq over the summer of 2008, reporting from the war while embedded with both the U.S. Army and the Marines. Tim holds numerous awards for reporting, photography, writing and editing, including the Oregon AP Award for Spot News Photographer of the Year (2004), the first place Electronic Media Award in Spot News, Las Vegas, (1998), Oregon AP Cooperation Award (1991); and several other awards including the 2005 Red Cross Good Neighborhood Award for reporting. Serving the community in very real terms, Salem-News.com is the nation's only truly independent high traffic news Website, affiliated with Google News and several other major search engines and news aggregators.
You can send Tim an email at this address: newsroom@salem-news.com




Comments

Internal Comments are Closed on this story.



Anonymous October 17, 2011 7:10 pm (Pacific time)

Is it true that their father has passed away in the prison? God be with this family.


Anonymous November 25, 2010 9:55 am (Pacific time)

Stop using Gods name in vain. I am a Ukrainian. And yes I was too abused by my parents, beating your kids because you are angry is not a disipline. According to the Bible you are to never punish you child in anger. I now have my own children and I am proud to say that I will never ever abuse my children. You have to keep in mind that your child is a gift from God and you are to take extra care until it is time to meet with your maker. When you receive an expensive gift from your loved one will you ever throw it around and beat it. Step on it, no you take care of it as if it is your most prized possetion. Why should a child be any different. Child beeting (so called by many spanking) or abuse should not be tolarated. My childred have never been spanked and they are always on their best behaviour. Always respectful to my husband and I, never disobeying. We always sit down and discuss with them their day what has happend and guide them in the right path of righteousness. As a survior of abusive childhood I refuse to believe that using spanking or beeting is a form of disipline. You can have a loving child if you just raise them with correct attitude and encouragement. Also stop using Gods name as a defense. Positive attutude and behaviour always will be over negative beeting and verbal abuse. God did not direct us to abuse our children or as many say disipline in a loving invironment. Most of you do not follow the old testament, why take one verse that gives you advantage over childre and use hate as if come from the Bible. The old testament directs us if you disobey one part of the law that you have disobeyed the whole law. My question to you hypocrates is how many of you pick and choose what gives you advantage and do not pay attention to the parts that do not. No where in the new testament will you ever find to phisically punish your kids. How ever new testament does tell us that my people are dying because of lack of knowledge. What happed to this Ukrainian family is unfortunate because they have died long time ago when the stopped obeing Gods commandments. Maybe when they are serving their sentance they will have planty of time to repent and step on the road of righteousness and end the madness of child abuse. What the Judge should have done is sentansed them to 7 years of presenting why child abuse is wrong and have them attend seminars speaking of what they did was wrong.


Valentina August 2, 2010 4:24 pm (Pacific time)

Editor, please post my comment. Why didn't you post it last time? Why does America weep for God’s help when tragedies like 911 strike, but refuse to live by his word? Discipline the children to set them on the right path. When my parents moved here with 4 kids (not for a single day did we receive benefits) they started to see how corrupted this country is, so they started to discipline us more than they would have back in Russia. Everyone here starts talking about benefits…I have something to add. Do you really think this country would pay benefits and welfare to families with kids for nothing? They are buying them for themselves. Why do you think this country pays money to our elderly who have not worked in this country? To purchase the children. America has no children. They have dogs and cats at their dinner tables and contraception and freedom. Think about it… there is no free cheese!


valentina August 2, 2010 1:41 am (Pacific time)

To all the Russians: Please learn how to communicate correctly and learn to spell. I’m Russian. Its embarrasing to see you guys can’t even spell. About the child abuse. The State of Oregon blew this way out of proportion. They saw the chance to grab attention and media time and they did. They saw the chance to become popular (as in Hollywood) internationally. Now everyone in Russia knows of Oregon State. Spanking is NOT abuse. Its a form of action in order to discipline. It’s a process, you don’t necessarily see immediate results. I even spank my dogs. They listen. They’re great! The State of Oregon decided they were going to punish this family to the maximum so that others will be afraid and quit discipline altogether. It’s because they are embarrassed that the Russian kids (and families) are better disciplined than 99% of the American kids. Why are all the American abusive parents not in jail serving 7 years? Why are they roaming free? Don’t get me wrong. I love this country. My husband and I are business owners here and we abide by the law. There are some laws I don’t agree with, but know one is asking me, so I must follow them.Tthe problem is that the State of Oregon did not identify the problem and were not able to distinguish between discipline and abuse. SHAME ON THEM!!


NADYA April 18, 2010 11:41 pm (Pacific time)

Damn V, your story is exactly like mine!! i feel you andand my situation has only made me stronger but i still love my parents!


Freedom March 24, 2010 11:00 am (Pacific time)

The judges and cops just have a problem. Parents are supposed to have the right to disipline their kids. These people are normal everyday parents, thy're not some retarted drunks or something. They are just parents who want their children to grow up to be normal. They don't want them to be druggies or rock stars geeks. Would you want your kids to grow up to be a freaky rebel with peircings all over them?? I don't think so.

Editor: Have piercings is worse than years of physical abuse?  You are wrong.


wheres the freedom??? February 5, 2010 9:47 pm (Pacific time)

wowww lotsa comments.. i think some ppl need to chill on here.. personally i feel sorry for the parents and the kids.. the parents were doing what a "good" parent is supposed to do, the kids are just lost and stupid, from the 2 sided influence, 1 coming from the american side, wanting to be like the americans and doing what they do, they forget about morality, listening to their parents, and what is common sence, and obviously they're trying so hard to fit in that they forget that no matter what they do, they remain ukrainians, even though i would prefer them to be some other nationality.. these kids just got lost in all that even when their parents hit them, they think oh americans don't get hit and if they do, they call the police, so lets do that and we'll be just like them.. ok im a teenagaer myself, and i've been spanked, but i would NEVER think of calling the police on my parents, i understand that they're doing whats best for me (and i get spanked for wrong doing), i might be mad for some time but i will draw conclusions of what not to do and what to do.. obviously the parents went to easy on them since they make up all this crap.. what about the piercing, the tattoos that the girl did? the news just puts "cut her hair" dude maybe they should say what she really did.. well in the scripture it says that the kids will rise against their parents, so here it is..


regina January 18, 2010 11:18 am (Pacific time)

i just wanted to comment on the article about the kozlov family trial. i completely agree that people that come to us from the ex ussr countries should be educated in us laws and regulations. that would help tremendously for them to follow the law. but you also have to agree that for the simple fact that they dont know the law, often times these people are being taken advantage of. things that they are not aware of work against them . im not saying that the kozlov parents were right in beating thei kids with rods and tools. that is compeltely unexeptable. but why doesnt an african american population is being held accountable for abusing and hitting their kids. i mind you not in privacy of their homes, in public!. im shure at least once in your life you have incounteder that. why nothing is being done about that? why only tha slavic community goes to trials and looses their kids???? is it BECAUSE THEY DONT KNOW THA LAW AND WE CAN USE AND ABUSE THAT???? i dont think that that is the way to go about this either. maby there should be more efforts to put in about aducating peopl about the laws and rights. just a thought


lena January 15, 2010 10:28 am (Pacific time)

My parents used to spank us too, but it was the last option. Now I have two kids of my own and I also punish them by spanking, only after they understand what they did wrong, and it is the last method of discipline in our family too. When kids see the love, they will never tell on parents or be that angry. My sister-in-law told me a story about one parent and a kid in a store where she was shopping. The kid was begging his mother to buy him something, and she was calm and explained to her son that she cannot afford to buy that thing that he wanted and the kid started yelling and punching and spitting at his mother, and she just stood helplessly in front of all the people in the store. Before I go to the store with my kids I explain to them what we are going to buy today. And they don't even mention to me of buying toys or candy if they know that i can't buy that at this time, because they were taught. What would you do in that lady's case? Other story: My nephew got married with the American girl, they have two children, whigh she is not taking care of, her husband is at work and she is sitting in front of the TV smoking pot her youngest daughter is crying because her diaper is full, and oldest son is naked runnig around in the house begging his mom for food, and she is so lazy to lift her fat butt to feed her kids, that I call the abuse. I'm not saying all the Russians or Americans all like that. I know Russian families who abuse kids by not providing clothes or food and beating their kids and also I know alot American families who do the same. So it is not the culture it is the individual problem.


nadia p. January 13, 2010 12:50 pm (Pacific time)

i feel sorry that they have to stay in prison for 7 yrs.i dont think they knew the laws over here aboat child abuse.they should'nt give up god will still help!


Natalie January 13, 2010 12:33 pm (Pacific time)

I just loooove weakling men hiding behind a woman's back. They amuse me.


dave January 12, 2010 12:54 pm (Pacific time)

if you want to come to the usa learn the laws!


Natalie January 12, 2010 2:08 am (Pacific time)

And how much that would be? RFDude: There's no need to wait for the outcome of the appeal. It's obvious: a broken mirror. No matter how much glue you apply, it will never be one piece again.


nedezhda January 11, 2010 2:05 pm (Pacific time)

they should have gotten alot more time in jail.


RFDude January 10, 2010 2:50 pm (Pacific time)

Kozlov Aleksandr and Ludmila will proceed in court on appeal, so much is for "God our attorney" as they stated in court previously. Now they will have to pay up to 40G for a good defense attorney (few slavic baptist churches in different states raising money for them). They plan to fight for parent rights also. Very interested in the outcome;)


just me January 10, 2010 2:13 pm (Pacific time)

I heard that the mom gets beat badly in jail. Poor mother and father. God have mercy on them. Both of them worked so hard to put food on the table for the children, and how do the children repay their parents. Its sad. Tarja Eva Karhu, please cool down, and stop accusing people of being crazy. Sounds like you need some help yourself. Editor please post my comment. Thanks


anonymous January 7, 2010 5:48 am (Pacific time)

I think this is another mistake that DSHS, and school athority made if this child abuse was going on for 6 years. Why no one reported, or suggested angre management classes, child disiplen classes or other educational classes. Why DSHS are not responsible for this? This is the first time parents has been told that they are doing something wrong.Why not give them a worning put them in to classes give them so aducation monitter them like we monitter sex afendres, DUI, drug ussers. And after they are free and clear let them get back to normal life. They are not drag edic, no alcohole, no other complaints before and seven year in prison that is to much. I think schools and DSHS need to do a better jod. School have conslers,help. their is alot of kids that reseive abuse from alcoholic families, drug addict parents and they hardly been notest. For six year no one talk to the parents, no one help the family, no one was their to educate. their is something missing in this picture some one alse need to take more responsibility.


Anonymous January 7, 2010 5:47 am (Pacific time)

this is good


anonymous January 7, 2010 5:45 am (Pacific time)

I think this is another mistake that DSHS, and school athority made if this child abuse was going on for 6 years. Why no one reported, or suggested angre management classes, child disiplen classes or other educational classes. Why DSHS are not responsible for this? This is the first time parents has been told that they are doing something wrong.Why not give them a worning put them in to classes give them so aducation monitter them like we monitter sex afendres, DUI, drug ussers. And after they are free and clear let them get back to normal life. They are not drag edic, no alcohole, no other complaints before and seven year in prison that is to much. I think schools and DSHS need to do a better jod. School have conslers,help. their is alot of kids that reseive abuse from alcoholic families, drug addict parents and they hardly been notest. For six year no one talk to the parents, no one help the family, no one was their to educate. their is something missing in this picture some one alse need to take more responsibility.


Anonymous January 5, 2010 4:13 pm (Pacific time)

I am not nuts, I apologize for my self and anyone who commented too hotly out of heated up debate. "In resorting to talk too much it's hard not to get in sin" (bible), bible is quite right noticing it here. It is that we are all very, very upset with the tragedy. I am human being, could be it's anyhow so that i see this story different than God. I am not sure if so, but if God Him self would convict these parents, then I do apologize for anything offensive I said. If it is possible He does not, or would still hesitate to convict them, then there could be better way to deal with this upsetting tragedy. Never hurry to hammer like the Soviet Union did. I never had a chance to see my Grandpa from mom's side just because of the S-Union's smack'em. Grandpa went through so heavy repressions that he developed cancer, doctors said it's stress related. Nobody before in our relation died from cancer. For about 180 years back, memories are kept and we do not have any cancer victims except my repressed grandpa... We do not have anybody showing any signs of cancer now too. Mercy is above the conviction, I believe in that, teach the parents mercy, and warmer love, that's the best solution, don't you agree? Love you and blessings.


January 1, 2010 11:55 pm (Pacific time)

Editor. Because of your last comment. I will not be posting or visiting this site. Thanks.

 


Anonymous January 1, 2010 12:35 pm (Pacific time)

Don't you people understand if these parents caused struggle bruises, mental trauma , whatever is implied in this case. The next thing is: Nothing was done to reduce the struggle in a whole, and in the world too by adding more struggle for parents to go in turn. In jails people are beaten, and beaten brutally. people who get out tell that. Beaten by the jail/prison staff not inmates! And beaten just because they think they should "correct" you. Be it you, you would say not this way correction should be done. The biggest crime is not making the parents to stop, and separating the family. this is in fact death sentence for these parents, not less. making them not beat the kids, was ultimately easy, we are not talking about sexual perverts here, these parents could be made to stop beating if this is the case. They could, ultimately could. a good class, as others said, a good fine, a probation officer visits, and there you go everything is up to normal. Instead these people are separated, this is the ultimate crime. I would choose to be shot on place instead of going through separation with my kids, and so do others. Instead of educating parents and making them some day to apologize to the kids, this family is being made enemies with each other, and by who? Heartless judge and the jury, who hide behind the system and with such deeds make it look horrible. if the system is against abuse, prove it! Instead they abuse as it can be seen now, brutally, that is the whole point.

Editor: More of this craziness eh?  The only reason that family is split up is because the parents savagely beat and abused t he very people they gave birth to.  It is their fault and possibly your fault, but it is not the judge's fault.  Seriously, you should get the hell out of our country you disrespectful liar. 


Anonymous January 1, 2010 3:43 am (Pacific time)

Tarja who tries to shut you up...? You are being asked, begged, kissed,(if you allow though) and hugged. Not justifying Kozlov's, believe there was better way, believe they could be back to their home all together, believe it COULD be made so no one ever was beaten there. and all just through extensive class course/ses. I do not believe in what was done to Kozlov's. It was being said they produced struggling. By making them struggle, the striggle its self does not, and did not become less, realize that. This is not the case to lock up, this is the case to educate wanted Kozlov's or or did not, they should have been put through the class. I feel sorry even for the system. You say Russia. I do not know what it is now in Russia. I know that Soviet Union was jailing for plain believing in God, also for political views that were different. Soviet Union's law it's self did not approve of kids beating. For the degree of beating Kozlov's are charged with, people in the Soviet Union were put to pay fines. So if anybody was beating, after fines they were quickly forgetting how to do that. The problem was: For the authorities it was pretty hard to figure out who beats their kids. Usually the more educated the family was the less or none of the beating you could expect. It is totally believable that if Kozlov's were to pay a fine like lets say thirty to fifty thousand dollars (lets say in installments) they would for sure stop beating forever. money punishment is the best working one with Russians. Russians hate to let money go, they are a kind of people that would become in every way flexible but to avoid the money punishment, or at least not have it again. Locking Russians in jail makes them worse, you need to understand that present solution is not a solution. In fact now there are thousands of people as it seems extremely irritated and staying dormant in their anger till time. taking a family from a Russian if a death sentence, not one iota less. I am sorry the "system" still did not figure out this community. While fines can be milk cow for the state and rid of having to spend taxpayers money on prisoners. Be wise and do not call people here abusers, most do not punish their kids physically, and I do not. It is that our mentality is different. We believe that none of the available resourses to bring this family up to date was exhausted. There was just the easy way done for the paper dirters: Riddance. That is the least good way to deal with family. This is done this way because family does not have true value in America perhaps.


john December 28, 2009 10:07 pm (Pacific time)

most kids who is mentally sick put their parents to jail by child protective services,American justice not exist this is dirty bussness and shame for USA.


Katie December 28, 2009 8:50 am (Pacific time)

I heard they are out. Is that true or just rumors?


Natalie December 28, 2009 1:12 am (Pacific time)

There's a very interesting subject called Logic. Using Logic formulas one could easily prove, that white is actually black, and by the end of conversation, you'll doubt your own name. Lawyer's job is to use facts and logic formulas to prove to the jury, that HIS(HER) client is wright. I saw good use of logic formulas by the prosecutors(for ex. if the kid was beaten, he doesn't come to school the next day. So, if the kid doesn't come to school, he was beaten. That's the same as to say "It's night, it's dark. So if it's dark, it's night". Another one, not rare here is "Kozlovs were found guilty of child abuse. They are Russians. So, all Russians are child abusers". That's the same as to say "Parrots are birds. All birds are parrots". For this reason, I expect a real logical defence during appeal. Sadly, I have no objection to the argument, that that's their fault for not having a professional attorney, and acting suicidal. But do we really want to push suicidal people off the cliff? Sometimes saving them means using force, pulling them back and fighting them to the ground. That's why we have phones on the bridges, videotape drunk alcoholics to show them how they really look, do family interventions, send trouble kids for couple weeks to prison as a tour to show, that they can do better. None of them does it willingly. Can we all at least agree on this point? And I don't believe, that people really wish for death, life in prison, ending bad on drugs and so on. Have you ever heard "If you do it, I'll kill you"? Imagine, if we really meant what we said-got home late -killed, didn't wash hands before meal-another body. Often, we say words without actually thinking.


Tarja Eva Karhu December 27, 2009 6:39 pm (Pacific time)

"Tarja Eva Karhu you are just stunning with yours "those so called parents" "those so called parents" "those so called parents" "those so called parents" THOSE SO CALLED KIDS ATE THEIR PARENTS SWEAT FOR YEARS AND COULDN'T COME UP WITH ANY BETTER IDEA TO FIX THE WHOLE THING? IT WAS ALL FIXABLE MANY WAYS WERE READILY AVAILABLE, NOW THERE IS NONE! ARE YOU SURE PARENTS WOULD CONTINUE TO DO THE SAME IF THEY WOULD FIRST IMMEDIATELY BE PUT THROUGH AN EXTENSIVE CLASS,JUST LIKE THE PREVIOUS POSTERS SAID? NO YOU DON'T BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT. PLEASE STOP SCREAMING CRIMINALS AT PEOPLE, UNTIL YOU KNOW FOR SURE. TIRED OF YOUR VERBAL PRESSURE INDEED. AHH... JUST KISSING(IF YOU ALLOW) AND HUGGING YOU. CAN YOU RELAX AT LAST AND GET SMILING, NICE? PLEASE DEAR TARJOCHKA : ) NICE WAYS ARE ALWAYS NICER : ) !" You can't shut me up! This is America! Let me give you at least one piece of advice; if you still really want to live in America, then you should learn what's legal here and what's illegal here, not insist that religion gives you the right to beat your kids. Whoever has at least half of the clue will be able to raise their kids without even resorting to violence.


Tarja Eva Karhu December 27, 2009 6:32 pm (Pacific time)

"Tarja Eva Karhu, you really do sound evil after all, listen to your own self, are you? do you hear it? You prove you can not take a beat at the second cheek, you are biting back badly! So there is no way you can be genuine advocate agains abuse. In fact you abuse verbally people here left and right. You absolutely lack pedagogue talent, may be have one but, dormant. Your main task is to show ability to change people's thinking. Instead you are biting and telling people to "get life" left and right. This is the same as your parents hit you and you were getting even more angry. Sorry for you you don't understand what it is truly not to abuse. I am not throwing mad at you, merely trying to tell you your methods are the same as the parents that are beating. And you can not assume that if in front of you, you see an aduld then the methods changed. No, they have to be the same soft nice, fatherly/motherly lovely love to the ones you try to persuade. It seems like you do not understand that. Instead you are going to lock up, tell people to "get life" etc... Who won't feel abused after that? Anyone changed their mind here after reading you......?! Get to be nice! Being nice truly conquers and persuades not to abuse. Sorry if made you feel bad... After all you look like you took a good share of struggle too..." I am not evil; in fact, I am the main voice whenever it comes to child abuse. You are wrong. The Kozlovs really beat their kids...AND YOU ARE APPROVING?! Well, you can't shut me up! This is America! Your anti-Americanisms really scare me to no end...if you don't like any laws in America, then I strongly suggest that you move back to Russia or something...


Svetlana December 27, 2009 10:45 am (Pacific time)

Editor this whole case is ridiculous and if they had lots of money and had legal representation this case would not prosecuted. You are so certain that they did commit all they were convicted of? I’m not so sure. The parents were wrong and made mistakes. I just thought that we live in a better world. That people are better and have common sense. I do support the parents and the kids because I think if there is a father and a mother and they don’t do drugs or drink alcohol and they have no criminal history. They both work and are able to support their family that they made and love. I think we need to find ways to keep family together. Instead of separating them. And I don’t want to send people like them to prison.


Anonymous December 27, 2009 10:42 am (Pacific time)

Tarja I’m against any abuse in any shape of form. I’m having a really hard time with is the sentence and the curmustanses that surround this case. A 6 day old baby was taken away from its mother. In my opinion it is cruel and unusual. You are giving me advice to learn the laws in the US but your parents are Americans. They knew the laws and broke them according to you. Maybe you should still prosecute them to make sure they pay for their mistakes maybe they will get a 7 year senesce???


Anonymous December 27, 2009 1:31 am (Pacific time)

Tarja Eva Karhu you are just stunning with yours "those so called parents" "those so called parents" "those so called parents" "those so called parents" THOSE SO CALLED KIDS ATE THEIR PARENTS SWEAT FOR YEARS AND COULDN'T COME UP WITH ANY BETTER IDEA TO FIX THE WHOLE THING? IT WAS ALL FIXABLE MANY WAYS WERE READILY AVAILABLE, NOW THERE IS NONE! ARE YOU SURE PARENTS WOULD CONTINUE TO DO THE SAME IF THEY WOULD FIRST IMMEDIATELY BE PUT THROUGH AN EXTENSIVE CLASS,JUST LIKE THE PREVIOUS POSTERS SAID? NO YOU DON'T BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT. PLEASE STOP SCREAMING CRIMINALS AT PEOPLE, UNTIL YOU KNOW FOR SURE. TIRED OF YOUR VERBAL PRESSURE INDEED. AHH... JUST KISSING(IF YOU ALLOW) AND HUGGING YOU. CAN YOU RELAX AT LAST AND GET SMILING, NICE? PLEASE DEAR TARJOCHKA : ) NICE WAYS ARE ALWAYS NICER : ) !


Anonymous December 27, 2009 1:11 am (Pacific time)

Tarja Eva Karhu, you really do sound evil after all, listen to your own self, are you? do you hear it? You prove you can not take a beat at the second cheek, you are biting back badly! So there is no way you can be genuine advocate agains abuse. In fact you abuse verbally people here left and right. You absolutely lack pedagogue talent, may be have one but, dormant. Your main task is to show ability to change people's thinking. Instead you are biting and telling people to "get life" left and right. This is the same as your parents hit you and you were getting even more angry. Sorry for you you don't understand what it is truly not to abuse. I am not throwing mad at you, merely trying to tell you your methods are the same as the parents that are beating. And you can not assume that if in front of you, you see an aduld then the methods changed. No, they have to be the same soft nice, fatherly/motherly lovely love to the ones you try to persuade. It seems like you do not understand that. Instead you are going to lock up, tell people to "get life" etc... Who won't feel abused after that? Anyone changed their mind here after reading you......?! Get to be nice! Being nice truly conquers and persuades not to abuse. Sorry if made you feel bad... After all you look like you took a good share of struggle too...


Peter STL December 26, 2009 7:06 pm (Pacific time)

John Denver is right, I'm a Russian christian and what he was saying was very honest and very truthful observation about our strange immigration that was really nothing to do with persecution. It was motivated by economy.And plus we are all very religious scribes and pharisees and not a real Godly people;in a first place we are not suppouse to leave our country just for a better life.Our sitizenship in Heaven not in this World. The real christian never would rely on wellfare system and rather die than cheating or using taxpayers money for own benefits.In America I found some real Godly men who helped me to see an Eternal Life in Christ and not a dead religion. I like this guy John Denver,what he said it was in the most cases just simple truth. God bless him for addressing this truth.According to this trial I against that ungodly judgement and kids shoud be unite with the parents and it is not a criminal case at all.


Tarja Eva Karhu December 26, 2009 6:47 pm (Pacific time)

Svetlana, you really should get help for yourself...and it is you who really should get a life as well. I am the main voice whenever it comes to child abuse. While I am truly against it, are you for it? You really should be locked up if so. It really makes me sick to even think that people like you are truly against these kids. Whoever has at least half of the clue will literally be able to raise their kids without even resorting to violence. Let me tell you something: When I was little, my "parents" used to hit me...did it really make me behave better? No! That only really pissed me off even more! If you really want to live in USA, then you really should learn what's legal here and what's illegal here, not insist that religion gives you the right to beat your kids...otherwise, just try to save money for moving back to Russia or something. Now look around! These "parents" beat their kids with sticks, rods, metal pipes and more...AND YOU ARE APPROVING?! You really should get a life if so. Thank myself, this editor, Yevgeniy, V, Oregon Reader and Lexx for truly caring about children and wanting only the best for them! Oh, and guess what, Svetlana? Sadly, there may be some people (who have been abused as kids) who beat their spouses/kids too, so get off this high horse and stop thinking otherwise, lady. Oh, and please don't insult anyone for supporting these kids instead of their so-called parents because that is dumb! Your arrogance really stuns me to no end...


Natalie December 26, 2009 2:40 am (Pacific time)

Oregon Reader: I can't really compare times, since I wasn't even born when the Vietnam War ended. I guess, a lot has changed. NCLB is the standard answer, I got for my "why". Usually, the speech part is great. Within a year-two kids start using English as the primary language in their conversations, and all graduate. But since they get not much correction in writing at schools, it shows. Their parents can't help them, because they take ESL classes themselves. Homeworks, I happened to see, included "draw a picture of your house" and "watch TV in the evening, and count all the violent scenes" in 8th grade. That's to give you an idea, what I'm talking about. So, I really can't blame kids for that. They learned, what they've been taught.


tanya December 25, 2009 10:01 pm (Pacific time)

hey everyone. I feel great pain for the kozlov family. i grew up in big family and strongly think that disipline should be done with love and on the butt. not shoulders hair pulling and beatings all kind of torture. We grow up and pick up on this wibe and have to so carefull not to punish our kids this way. To tell you the true it runs in russian blood. The torturistik way our parents were put through in back country runs in the families.. I wish they would realy teach in churches what is the right bible way to punish kids. It is so sad to see those parents but truly they know no better any other way to punish their kids. Giving them seven year in prison should be crime, they only did what they knew and what runs in their blood. I have the abuse and i think their is sooooo much to be said regarding children disipline we all need what is the way about it. good luck to all and please stop beating kids. disipline them stop destroying our lives.


me December 25, 2009 9:30 am (Pacific time)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3QQ19Mr22w&feature=channel (copy and paste this Video on child abuse in Ukraine community


Oregon Reader December 24, 2009 7:02 pm (Pacific time)

Natalie, ii is hard to believe that No Child Left Behind causes long-term students to not learn English. I was a grade-school student after the Vietnam War, and we had several students who spoke no English. Within ONE school year, they were very conversant, and within six years, they ALL graduated, on time, with their classmates, and were FLUENT. I can't believe that we ever moved away from non-immersion programs...


Anatoliy December 24, 2009 4:46 pm (Pacific time)

This all is becoming very annoying. Perhaps, the time has come to stop talking about this family and move on. And please, whoever does that, stop accusing all Slavic people in being child abusers. Do not judge the whole community by 20-30 absurd comments! Most of the people are fine residents in this country, however, like in every race, there are "black sheep in the flock". So stop pointing fingers please. By the way, have you ever heard of Russian parents (in the US) heartlessly killing their children or a Russian or Ukrainian maniac raping around? I do not recollect such cases. So, if I hear about American mother or father drowning their own children, should I assume that all (or most ) Americans are like that? Most intelligent people would disagree. To editor: I respect and support your point of view that the children should not be abused mentally or physically, however, the way you portrayed us (Ukrainians) hints that most of us are child abusers and there are almost no child advocates in our community. This is a distorted view. There are over 100,000 Slavic people in the Portland Metro area alone. Who gives you right to bring up such serious accusations based on points of view of 20-30 emotionally disturbed individuals? I think you need to apologize to all fine people who came from Ukraine. Do not get me wrong, I DO NOT SUPPORT CHILD ABUSE, however I cannot stand when based on a few individuals' actions someone (in this case you) tries to portray and judge everyone who came from that country and speaks that language. Just think about it and do the right thing. Merry Christmas and thank you for everything!


Svetlana December 24, 2009 2:20 pm (Pacific time)

Lexx~ 92 percent of Americans believe in God according for Fox news. You must have great respect for the law and our justice system to make a statement like don’t do the crime and if you can’t do the time. Please read the story of a Florida man James Bain who was released after 35 years in prison because he did not do the crime and there is tons of people like him. Truly innocent people do go to prison. I would help the Kozlov family get an attorney for their appeal.

Editor: Innocent people have been locked up, but that is not the case here, so what is your point?  Please don't write as if the Koslov's didn't commit the crimes they were convicted of.  That is ridiculous, they didn't even attempt to launch a legitimate defense.  Nobody is to blame but the parents, thank goodness the system is here for people who are unaccountable for their own actions.


December 24, 2009 1:22 pm (Pacific time)

Kozlov's son is an accomplished criminal want that the court to recognize or not. The parents seeing that tied to deal the way they know. If it was found their way was wrong, then they sould have to be immediatelu through a class. If after that they do not find a way to deal with kids without beating then, you can call them crominals. but at this time with their son's darings you can not. Make sure the parents fully comprehend the law, force them through the class and only after that you could convict them if anything. Their son is several steps closer to the jail now, judge we bow low, low to you for the super wise jedgements you speeded up to do. We the whole community will file a lawsuit against you the very first day we find out his son is in jail. with funds from everyone to hire the best prosecutors we will see you for many times in the place you have put the Kozlov's way too fast.


Svetlana December 24, 2009 12:15 pm (Pacific time)

Merry Christmas! http://ak.imgag.com/imgag/product/preview/flash/bws8Shell_fps24.swf?ihost=http://ak.imgag.com/imgagandbrandldrPath=/product/full/el/andcardNum=/product/full/ap/3166187/graphic1


Svetlana December 24, 2009 12:14 pm (Pacific time)

Tarja~ no one is supporting child abuse and no one enjoys being abused or seeing children suffer don’t be ridicules. There is no excuse for abuse! End of story. If a person has this problem they need to get some help and deal with their issues. Not be send to prison for 7 years like Kozlovs. There are plenty of people who have been abused and do not abuse their spouses, or kids. GET A LIFE, GET SOME HELP and GET OVER YOURSELF.


Lana December 24, 2009 12:56 am (Pacific time)

I think that a lot of us have very different understanding about this story and we really cannot compare this one to V's. I have also heard of some people even very young couples where when getting married the guy is supposedly very Christian, but in life puts his wife through hell. For a lot of girls don’t get the police involved right away they put up with all the abuse and hope for a change. There are dads or husbands like that that have a very bad attitude. They get drunk come home very late who knows from where and start taking everything out on the wife and the kids. However it’s not everyone. I feel really bad for families like that, and pray to God to help girl like that and change their lives. We could look at this story from two very different sides. But we cannot assume that these parents are doing the same as the story that V wrote... I wanted to share a little story too to maybe help some understand that different things happen with different people. “There is a family that something similar happened also. In this family it was just one boy. He was about 14 or 15 somewhere around that age. He started smoking when mom found out she was hart broken and when disciplining hit him. That boy knowing how the law works called police and mom was taken away. She had to go to jail; I don’t think it was 7 years probably less. Dad was left home. The father of that boy was scared to even say anything to his son anymore so beginning at a very young age he started doing what ever he wanted to do. When mom came out she was unrecognizable. Before she looked young and very pretty, and after this whole thing with her son and the jail she looked very old. Her hair turned gray. Her son now was a little more grown got in to a really bad group of friends was dealing not just with cigarettes but drugs now. He got himself in to a lot of trouble and was deported back to Ukraine. Since he was already involved with drugs the boy couldn’t just quit just because he was deported. In Ukraine he too found himself friends and got involved with bad things. I don’t know how much time passed but he once called his dad that lived here in America and said to come quick and help him or it will be too late. His dad got a plain ticket and couldn’t leave right away because of his job. A week later a relative called and said that his son is already dead. Father of this boy came and couldn’t see his son alive anymore he had to do a funeral instead. This boy died at age of 22. If I’m not mistake he was stabbed on the back with some kind of an instrument to cut down trees. People that killed him were his friends. He owed them money fro drugs but had nothing to pay back.” I am not saying that hitting kids is ok, just depends how you do it. But looking at this story some kids that don’t obey their parents end up in a really bad situation pretty soon after. And just like someone said in their comments. If you can’t do the time don’t do the crime. However I would put this one more toward the kids, if they don’t want parents to punish tem they should obey their parents. Since parents are responsible for their kids till they turn 18. Parents should have the right to say no I don’t want you to do that or go there. And kids really need to respect that. My parents never hit me and they probably never will. But I know what my mom and dad let me do and what they don’t and I try to never come home late or do something they don’t allow in their house. I didn’t understand this when I was younger but I see now that it all worked for the best. I was obeying my parents and they were always proud of me. The never had to sit up whole night crying waiting till I come home in the morning. Kids have no idea how much they hurt their parents with their acts. I believe these parents didn’t abuse their kids. I don’t know them but just looking at them how can anyone say they r criminals. This should have been a warning first. It seems unfair its seems a very harsh punishment especially that newborn baby taken away. A lot of parents have troubles with their teenage kids. We cannot punish them we need to help them. And take further more harsh actions if everything done possible to help and not obeying and beating up are still going on. Kids want freedom but they don’t know that best time is till they turn 18. After its collage, work and the bills. You actually have to deal with the real world and this world isn’t as friendly as kids imagine when they r younger. I couldn’t wait to get out of high school and mom always told me I will miss it. I do miss it now. Back then parents took care of everything now I am kind of on my own. Kids think its fun till they actually try it.


Lana December 23, 2009 11:10 pm (Pacific time)

V-thank you for sharing your story, it is horrible for what happened to you and I’m glad that you are able to move on and find love and happiness in this world. When I heard about Kozlov’s jail sentence I thought there has to be sexual abuse. But when I read about it it was just two parents trying to raise their kids. I feel for those children and don’t want to blame them. It is a sad story all around. I think every one lost. But the punishment for the parents is excessive. They should have never been allowed to represent them self’s. I don’t know how I can help the Kozlov family but for parents out there. Let’s keep the conversation going. Not put each other down but build each other up. I wish every one Have a great Christmas!


to V December 23, 2009 11:08 pm (Pacific time)

Sorry V I meant of your dad, I wrote "parents" while see your mom cared truly abuser that's all he sounds from your story.


Anonymous December 23, 2009 10:55 pm (Pacific time)

to V you have posted on December 23 your posting is big! I feel very sorry for you reading your comments... If all this is true... I do not want to hurt your feelings in any way. At the time of Soviet Union because of extremely unGodly TV it was considered best for a good Christian to better stick to bible and avoid the TV at all costs. And majority of well mannered churchgoers indeed did try their best to avoid the TV. It indeed was something you won't get very happy to watch. My dad for example chose not to have it at all, he sadly said: All they are talking about on it is when they will have the last churchgoer to finally show him on TV. Not very happy thing to watch and hear this. It is pretty surprising to hear that your dad enjoyed the TV of those days. A good churchgoer just wouldn't. I am very sorry that you happened to grow in such family. My dad for example even before our family ever decided to become Baptist churchgoers, he was very nice to us kids, and so was mom, we could see how they love us very much, it is great now to realize, we the kids were so fortunate. After our parents became churchgoers we could see even more improvement, recollecting those days we could see how they are becoming even better. At those days we did not understand it, but now when I know America, I can say they were becoming a great deal, Americans like. Just extremely nice people, when I grew up I remember noticing how many of the orthodox neighbors were not pleased at how my parents loved each other so much, and how well they treated us, the kids. Our parents would never ever allow them selves to have a nice time at kids expense! Sorry I sound boastful, but that is all true what I say to the last word! And that is I understand how parents should be! What you are saying of yours... I fear they never knew God... It is impossible to comprehend, what they were doing, these people have never let God into their lives, all their claims of being Christian ARE NOT VALID. I am sorry for you so much , why? Because kids normally seeing the model their dad represents think that is what God is too. I have no idea how your dad will have to deal with God for such representation of God's essence to his very own family. Horrible, I think that would be nice your parents to repent to the bottom of their souls, and get at least a month long Hawaii vacation for you kids to at least anyhow rehabilitate you all. I realize it is not fully possible, too much of damage, but, at least something done is better than nothing. If they do not realize their so bad faults... I wouldn't want to be your parents to deal with that same God they were claiming to worship.


Natalie December 23, 2009 6:20 pm (Pacific time)

Oregon Reader: I, personally, blame No Child Left Behind Act for poor English. The intentions were good, but the results are.., let's just say not good at all. My guess is,that it's more profitable for schools to have translators all the way up to High School, than to make students learn something. When I BEGGED to place my kid in a normal no-translator-nanny class, I was looked at as some kind of psycho and got a NO. I had to change the school. And many parents deal with the same problem.


Tarja Eva Karhu December 23, 2009 6:18 pm (Pacific time)

To V, reading your story really brought tears to my eyes. However, I am glad that you guys left that monster of a man who dared to call himself a "father" because you, your brothers and even your mother literally did nothing wrong. I wish you guys all the best.


Oregon Reader December 23, 2009 4:48 pm (Pacific time)

Nessa, I am glad you were only beaten twice and not daily or weekly. V, yours is a distressing story. The same acts occur in American families. For some reason the comments seem to have devolved into an ethnic "thing". ED, your English seems quite poor for someone with over a decade in the U.S., and with at least six years in our schools. You seem to hate. I am sorry for you. Peace to all of you.


Natalie December 23, 2009 12:26 pm (Pacific time)

V: What a horrible story. I guess, my assumption, that everybody's parents are as nice as mine, is wrong. You have my sincere sympathies.


Nessa December 23, 2009 11:30 am (Pacific time)

I was raised in a family where we had discipline. My parents did have to raise their hand on me once or twice. But let me tell you everyone one thing.. IM GLAD THEY DID CAUSE i learned my lessons and i dont do stupid things. I have respect for older people. A LOT of respect. I love my parents even though sometimes i do think they are wrong, but they are my parents. They raised me, they fed me, my mother had to go through pain for 9 months to give birth, my parents have been there for me in bad and in good times. They never stood me up. These are your parents and i dont even know how those kids live with themselves after putting their parents through hell. If it wasnt for their parents i dont think they'd me alive right now. I just wanna say that they will feel guilty and sorry for doing this but it will be too late.


V December 23, 2009 10:52 am (Pacific time)

Hey everyone. I don't mean to intrude, but I would like to contribute to the productive discussion by sharing my short story. I only ask that you ponder the implications. I am a Ukrainian-American, born in Ukraine (at the time USSR) to a traditional Baptist family (5th generation) that moved to the US as soon as the opportunity arose. Like the Kozlovs, we also had a large family. Our father abused us severely physically, psychologically, emotionally, and even economically. He whipped us with rose branches (sometimes with the thorns still on). He whipped us with stripped twigs - on one occasion my brother was whipped 100 times for being the 4th grader he was and stepping on some fruits in our neighbor's garden. I remember hearing out-loud every number counted and every yell screamed that day. My brother walked to school in the middle of summer in a sweater to cover his bruises and whip marks covering his entire body. My father often beat my mother with a blue metallic pipe in Ukraine. I've had scissors thrown at me. I've been choked, punched, slapped, threatened with expulsion from the house, whipped, sexually molested, psychologically manipulated, worked unnecessarily, arbitrarily controlled/monitored, and made to feel like a rat, among other things. My brother has had a fork thrown into his back. My younger brother and I worked my dad's graveyard janitorial shifts while he watched TV - we were 10 and 12. We've never earned one penny from that. I ceaselessly witnessed barrages upon the character and persons of my mother and siblings - hearing awful verbal attacks on their worth and value, including mine. I've heard my mother called a "piece of shit", "a worthless, fat cow", an "unfaithful, promiscuous whore", etc on a multitude of occasions - this occurred daily. My mother worked overtime shifts 6 days a week to provide for our large family while my father worked odd, inconsistent and temporary jobs, often being unemployed. There were some occasions where I was spanked with a belt. All of this was done for the sake of discipline. Some alternatively interpret this to also reflect a need for domination and power over those weaker than the victimizer. However, I was a straight A student in my school years. I did not and do not smoke or drink. I have a perfect driving record. I am single and still have my V card. All of this to say that I do not attribute any of my "successes" to my father's "discipline", rather it was my mother who saved me by her example of hard work and parental love, keeping me sane enough to cope with the abuse. My mother did this without ever spanking me. If anything, my father showed me the example of what not to be and what not to do. For those of you curious, my father was a well-established and well-to-do man in the Russian-speaking churches here. He preached from the pulpit often, held a position on the board of elders, and he sang in the choir in our church.
After twenty some years of marriage, my mother and the rest of the children decided to leave him. My main regret is not leaving him earlier. Unfortunately, my father was never exposed for who he really was and is, and he was never criminally convicted for what he did. This man created a lot of pain in our lives and he did this all while claiming to be a Christian (and citing Biblical texts while abusing, arguing, and attacking). Our church teachings of encouraging a woman's submission did not help either in empowering us as the victims to seek refuge elsewhere (which my mother attempted, and received cold shoulders from the board of elders in our church). My father acts no different than other men in Slavic immigrant churches when in public, but home was a different story. Now, my mother and us children (who were all young adults when the divorce occurred) are perceived as the victimizers in this situation by our former Slavic religious communities and my dad walks freely in good standing with the Slavic church he attends. To be honest, I would have rather been raised without a father than with the one I had to endure. I share this story because I want the readers to realize that this reality is much closer to home and more prevalent than we think, especially when addressing Russian-speaking Christian communities in the US. Since our split, I have made it my endeavor to help Slavic immigrant families by pursuing a profession in counseling and in the meantime somewhat raising awareness of the issue. But of course, because I am young and single, I have little to no voice worth hearing or allowed to speak in Slavic churches.
Regarding the Kozlov family case, I would like to say however that the deed is done and the children do not have their blood parents, but they ought to have their church family step in and be overly gracious to them. It is no easy task for a child to call up ones parents to the police, not knowing the repercussions but only wishing for the abuse to stop. We can easily victimize the Kozlov children further than they already have been by placing blame on them and vilifying them. The Apostle Paul calls his readers his brothers and sisters in Christ, and yet we so readily turn these children into evil-hearted and ill-intentioned strangers and criminals. My story is just one of many. The Kozlov children should be the last children to ever be abused, but that all depends on how we choose to raise our own children. God bless!


Lexx December 23, 2009 1:08 am (Pacific time)

The point is don't do the crime if you cant do the time. There is no way the parents didn't after 8 years of living in the U.S. haven't heard about local laws and its circumstances, yet they decided that they do the right thing in Gods eyes. I heard of some cases where there was underage rape involved in one of the churches in Portland and the "brothers" decided not to involve police just because the offender had a wife and kids of his own and the girl was only 15 when he raped her. So for all of you Gods people out there who think that this country is based on religion and you can get away with anything using bible verses - you are dead wrong. Think about it.


Working hard from the 1st day in the December 23, 2009 12:32 am (Pacific time)

Most likely the kids never came to the church to say how much excessively they have been punished. I am sure they would have been helped greatly if it really was the case of excessive punishing from parents, so much that you can call it strictly abuse. I am from the same kind of church as these kids are. And in our church if kids really have the proof to show on their bodies, that they take the kind of beating as the Kozlov kids state they had, then this is absolutely positive that in our church the parents would ultimately end up in front of the whole church questioning them, reasoning them, AND FORBIDDING THEM! Also normal practice would be demanding the pastor to pay visits to this family few times a week to make sure the parents are acing as parents and no abuse is happening. Our church is also located in much bigger city it could be that we also have better educated church leaders. But that is ultimately how it could have happened in our place. i think these children never tried this option no matter what level of general education their church leaders had. I think at least out of trying to avoid being embarrassed in the whole community something would be definitely done to make kids life happy. At least I am totally sure it would have been done with the best outcome the kids can wish in my city! This whole issue isn't even an issue in my city church, we live the civilized life!


Tarja Eva Karhu December 22, 2009 7:17 pm (Pacific time)

To those of you who support child abuse and those so-called parents, let me ask you something: Would you enjoy being abused as children, afraid and helpless? I bet you wouldn't. You only blindly support them because you are brainwashed into doing so. I hope the kids never get to see them again. If you still don't like the laws in USA, then I strongly suggest that you move back to Russia or something.


Anonymous December 22, 2009 5:54 pm (Pacific time)

There is nothing wrong with salvaged BMW. Get me wreaked one for free. I'll do my best to fix it back with OEM new parts. After that it will be as reliable as any other. The only difference will be I have saved some money for my kids that I by the way do not beat! I have enough brains to raise them the normal way. and don't be nuts I believe 99.9 percent of Russians or Ukrainians do not do any beating, because the bible said not to irritate the kids. So any punishment if anybody does it must be of extraordinarily circumstances. People here just defend the right to punish if indeed something extraordinary happens. But I would my self loose all the respect to my own self if my kids would be beaten on a regular basis. Yes I am a Russian and I am more educated than any regular American, and I am sure my kids have better and totally not beaten life compare to most regular born here American kids. I am ready any time to die for my kids, and for now do not see even one small reason why they should be punished physically. If it would come to that I would first start questioning my own self. Why my kids misbehaved? Was it something I overlooked, and did not help them on time to understand something? Or was it me not trying hard enough? I believe most of the people here do not punish physically just as me, but do defend the right to punish, if it can save a child. I believe most here will agree that punishment should never get as severe to become an abuse. russians are not stupid after all. One of the GOOGLE founders is Russian, his name is Sergey Brin. First one who made successful rocket engine was Russian Tsiolcovsky. He did it before anybody else made something similar to work successfully. Google and see. I do not see anything wrong with driving salvage car as long as it was earned with honest labor. And i do not see anything wrong with cleaning jobs, I have done one in the past, as long as you work your self at your best on your job you should be proud that you do your best to not have your family under the bridge. Yevgeniy does not look like regular immigrant coming here in fact his talks so much resemble former KGB officer, or just former regular communist, those who were putting many of us through Siberia because we said God does exist! This is not a regular guy, Editor do not be fooled. Those who tortured us for years and years you must know they are extremely chameleon like and can be very deceiving in appearance.


ED December 22, 2009 12:57 pm (Pacific time)

Yevgeniy YOU ARE SO RACIST WHATS WRONG WITH YOU?? GO TO HIGH SCHOOL AND CHECK HOW MANY CALSSES DOES AMERICAN STUDENTS FAIL AND HOW MANY DOES RUSSIAN/UKRAINE/MOLDOVIAN FAIL? I FINISHED HIGH SCHOOL HERE: (YES I AM RUSSIAN) I HAD NEVER FAIL ANY CLASS IN MY SCHOOL SINCE I CAME IN US WHEN I WAS IN 6TH GRADE..BUT I WAS SO SURPRISED HOW MANY CLASSES DOES AMERICANS FAIL (I AM NOT TRYING TO PUT SOMEONE DOWN I'M JUST TELLING THE FACT) WHAT KID OF PROBBLEM DO YOU HAVE WITH SALVAGE TITLES BMW OR ARE YOU JEALOUS? WHATS WRONG WITH YOU???? YOU CAN SURE GO AHEAD AND BY A FORD FROM A DEALERSHIP.... AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO TELL YOU ANYTHING... JUST STOP BEING RACIST!!!


Lana December 21, 2009 7:52 pm (Pacific time)

John, i don't know if you have kids or not. But have your own and when you love them so much and want whats best for them you feed them dress them give them home work day and maybe nights never enough sleep all for your kids. And then they grow up and totally ruin you, disrespect you and next thing you know your in jail and all over the news as some kind of a criminal. It seems to me that this is very unfair. A lot of kids want to leave their homes at this age, but to leave this way should be a crime. Mom and Dad are the best people in this world for me. They should never be disrespected. This is unbelivable. Puting parents in jail should be a crime. These kids will probably end up there them selfs. Because this very same law that is protecting them so well right now is going to put them back. They didnt want to obey their parents I have little faith they will obey the law.


jack December 21, 2009 2:18 pm (Pacific time)

these kids just want attention and their parents are disciplining them...there is nothing wrong with that -Ukraninan


Irina December 21, 2009 11:22 am (Pacific time)

(This comment moved from previous story on same subject) I'm immensely stupified at the intensity and amount of comments on this post. I must say I am torn in my feelings towards this case. Although the parents honestly believed they were doing nothing wrong in punishing their kids, they did abuse them. They could have spanked them, simply and effectively disciplining them. I can relate to the children and the parents. As a teenager, I was often punished, and often tempted to report my parents to the authorities. But the fear of growing up in foster homes with strangers instead of my own parents was enough to stop me each time. My parents had 9 children. Each of us was punished/disciplined, some more than others, some more severely than others, depending on our actions. Despite all this, the children should not have called the police on their children. They should have contacted a trusted family friend for help. Someone that could have shown the parents that what they were doing was against the law, to give them a chance to re-evaluate their punishment/discipline tactics, and change them. THe children may be better off w/out the "abuse", but are they really better off w/out their own parents? I have been in the USA most of my life, and have been spanked numerous times. All of us have. We are all responsible adults. I am a wife and a mom. So, yes, the parents (probably unknowingly) broke the law and their punishments were too severe. But I also believe the children don't realize what's really going on, as they are afraid of all the police, judges, prosecutors, jury, etc, and just say what they all want to hear. They are afraid of going back home because they are told their parents will punish tham again. What a pity.


douglas benson December 19, 2009 9:00 am (Pacific time)

As a child I was brought up in a "christian " home and sent to a "christian" school .Corpral punishment was the rule of the day and as an unruly child I was not spared the rod untill I was 13 or so when I refused to comply and decided I would rather fight and get my licks in . But I knew better than to go as far as some of the children I see today . A good old fashioned slap upside the head might just teach them some respect not just for thier parents but for everyone they come into contact with . You cant expect to verbally abuse hit kick or spit on someone without expecting to catch a beating thats just real life . This couple went way beyond the fine line of disipline to abuse and now they pay the price.


Natalie December 19, 2009 12:40 am (Pacific time)

Nobody wants to speak to me now. I really need to stop also. So, everybody visiting after me Merry Christmas! Keep your kids safe, and let's not forget this family. There is a long unknown journey ahead of them all. Editor: Thanks for keeping a debate going. I only wish we talked about something more pleasant. (Not about Israel though. We'd probably have a pretty heated discussion about that too, since I consider myself a supporter of Jewish people.) Take care.


Natalie December 18, 2009 1:39 pm (Pacific time)

Yevgeniy: Your point about underaducated teenagers is valid. I also wish we don't have to use foul language here. As for the rest of your post, I'm very much surprised. Never heard this kind of history interpretation even from former communists, since there are now only a small group of people calling themselved communists. The rest suddenly became orthodox. Let me reassure you, that I don't belong to their church, but I don't make fun of them, because of their clothes. They chose to look old-fashioned. Respect that. We don't call Amish people abusive based on their dress code, do we? Same applies to menonites(not sure, if I spelt it correctly). My neighbours in Ukraine were American menonites for few years. Their women wore caps and very light self-made dresses, even when everything was under snow and ice. We don't call it oppressive either, right? In fact, the Kozlov's kids were given to menonites, to my understanding, because they have similar mentality. Second, please give me an example, how their church in former Soviet Union obstructed justice. By wanting to have Prayer Houses? By not becoming Komsomol members in High School? By never drinking and smoking? Their church declined to be registered, because being registered did't mean just a piece of paper. It meant, that they agreed not to take kids to worship services, reporting individuals who thought otherwise,and so on. If that's the "insight", then I shold assume, you were on the other side of the barrier. Please prove me wrong. As for the trial, I do believe, that the outcome could be different with the different attitude. In fact, I still hope for the better, and think we all should do the same. Life is too short to waste it, and have the sour taste of it in the end.


me December 18, 2009 11:34 am (Pacific time)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QftfRNdavTg (copy and paste this link Video ) Talkes about the Ukrainian abuse


John Denver December 18, 2009 10:38 am (Pacific time)

Yevgeniy, you are an intelligent man why dont you write a book about this community you seem to have a deep insight...I enjoy your posts.


4rm the heart December 18, 2009 9:30 am (Pacific time)

it is soo stupid wat ppl think these days. the boy who called the police is either gonna kill himself..it just depneds on when he gets a chance! he is alredy regretting what he has done and if he doesn't kill himself he will go crazy beating himself up for what he did! he put his parents away 4 seven years! and when they get out? never again do they have the right to see there 7 kids! they are 2 be deported right away. it is just wrong! is the judge that heartless?! does he not have children? that baby will never have a real mother and father bcuz of 12 godamn juries who thought it was funny 2 put the parents away! poor kids won't sleep at night crying, longing for their mother and father whereas they will be in a cold dark cell questioning god what they have done to deserve this!


Yevgeniy December 18, 2009 4:38 am (Pacific time)

1. This family belongs to a ultra-fundamentalist religious movement with a long history of siege mentality - so called "otdelennie" ("separatists"). It was their favorite activity back in USSR to obstruct justice and to taint authorities until they finally get "persecuted" so they can claim martyrdom. I guess they carried it to here. Just look how distinctively the women (only the women!) are clothed and hair-styled and think about other oppressive and abusive religious movements you know. I think the majority of deeply-religious Russian-Ukrainian-Moldovian immigrants are quite sane and are deeply embarrassed by this case and this group. 2. I think that those who post here with that ridiculous advocacy are mostly under-educated teenagers that need to forget that "I'm-a-proud-Russian" mentality they need to feel good about their "Fs" in school, go back to their books, learn how to spell, go to university and become decent members of the society, INSTEAD of marrying at 17 (to legally run away from "loving" parents and enjoy the forbidden pleasure of sex), driving their salvage-title BMWs, spending life in roofing/ house-cleaning and making stupid posts on the Internet between downloading another pirated movie.


Oleg Ilyushenko December 18, 2009 2:04 am (Pacific time)

We all must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive what ever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body


Natalie December 18, 2009 1:11 am (Pacific time)

Lashaun Harris stripped her 3 kids aging from 6 to 1 naked, and threw them off the San-Francisco bridge. Was found insane. My opinion-when the crime is beyond our human nature, we call it insane, hug this piece of***, give her so called medical help, and feed her to the rest of her life. This ***** doesn't have to think about lack of money in Social Security System either. And please don't tell me, that living with guilt is the punishment for her. Sometime I feel like we need Moses' law back. Good thing, I don't have a gun. Took me a while to watch News again. Still shivering. But I digressed: When the crime is light, but the accused are not smart enough to beat the law with the law, we let our anger overcome our sharp mind, and give the maximum.


anonymous December 18, 2009 12:05 am (Pacific time)

so 7 years for disciplining your children if you are Ukranian, and 17 months for killing if you are an illegal Mexican?


Natalie December 17, 2009 9:25 pm (Pacific time)

P.S. The picture reminded me of Kiev after Chernobil events. Kids were taken by buses to safe locations, and the city looked dead without kids, and sounds of laughter.


Natalie December 17, 2009 9:14 pm (Pacific time)

Playing Hide and Seek here... Anyway, last Anonymous:
Actually, that's only one condition, because no Russians with clear mind will leave without their kids. That's the most precious of all, what we possibly could have. Taking away kids is the worst punishment itself, one could imagine. But, did I miss any news, that we talking about freeing now?


Anonymous December 17, 2009 8:06 pm (Pacific time)

I hope that they only are freed on two conditions: One, they choose to change their ways; or, two, if they do not choose to change their ways, they agree to be deported. These options are simple. They need to understand that abuse is BAD, MMM-Kay? The Bible says that parents need to provide guidance. NOT BEAT.


Anonymous December 17, 2009 8:05 pm (Pacific time)

"they fell" really ? my kids dont have bruises all over their bodys and they fall all the time ,, get a life, have some love for the helpless children , I know you are for the parents , but you got to admit that there was more than that , the only people that defend the parent in this case have to be beating their own children . Sorry but this is a fact , love your children while they are still young , this is the time where their brains are developing and beating like these parents did will effect the kids Psychologically for the rest of their lives


Anonymous December 17, 2009 7:35 pm (Pacific time)

Let them go becauseI know that they did not beat their children they just spanked them. I think that the bruises you saw were because the children fell.Children always fall.

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