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May-26-2008 13:31printcomments

Vainglorious: The Munchausen Complex

Munchausen Syndrome in Collective Transmission extends Transgenerational abuses into a community, society, or culture.

Courtesy: djeedjes.wordpress.com

(SAN ANDREAS, Calif.) - This report extends Munchausen Syndrome and Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy when harmful behaviors become part of the social fabric.

As socialized beings, we are usually unaware why we think what we think and why we do what we do. Exploring beneath the surface, we may discover we are not who we imagine we are. Are our subtle perversions and aberrations so different from those of the ancients, or other cultures we label primitive? Inferring atrocity to others is easier. By pointing fingers, we don’t have to look at ourselves.

Richard Dawkins introduced the meme which may be thought as a social gene. A meme is a psychological tool often used by humans to pass down cultural identity. Memes can include customs, language, music, dietary habits, catch phrases, fads, fashion, and humor. Social rituals create identification for group cohesion and transmitted to successive generations for cultural continuity.

Circumcision from Abraham is an example. Abraham initiated his tribal rite with self-circumcision. He passed it to the next generation by circumcising his children. He passed circumcision to his group, and cultural transmission was established when all people under Abraham’s rule, including slaves and servants, were cut.

Munchausen Syndrome (MS)
Sir Richard Asher, an English physician, introduced Munchausen Syndrome in 1951. In this syndrome a person fabricates signs and symptoms of illness for attention and sympathy. Munchausen patients know their condition is false.

Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy (MSBP)
Roy Meadow, an English pediatrician, introduced Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy (MSBP) in 1977. MSBP occurs when the person seeking attention causes harm by fabricating an illness in another. A perpetrator’s payoff is the attention gained from involvement in their victim’s treatment. This way they become an alter-patient, under the guise of a concerned caretaker, without personally suffering injury. The victim is a means to an end. MSBP is difficult to diagnose, has been misused, but valid in proper context. Some health care providers, mostly nurses, do this. This health care phenomenon may very well be a distinct category of Munchausen that should be researched and defined as Munchausen Malignant Hero Syndrome.

When Munchausen behaviors enter the social, taken together they form a Munchausen Complex.

Munchausen Syndrome in Social Transference
When Munchausen acts of abuse manifest themselves in a social context and when they become commonplace and acceptable, an identity shift occurs through social transference. Transference is defined as: the displacement of one’s unresolved conflicts, dependencies, and aggressions onto a substitute object.

MUNCHAUSEN SYNDROME IN SOCIAL TRANSFERENCE is the identity transference of the self into a social group that practices forms of Munchausen behavior.

Transgenerational Munchausen Syndrome
Transgenerational Munchausen Syndrome is the passing of Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy’s abuses to successive generations. The purpose is to feed the need for belonging through attachment seeking. Transgenerational Munchausen practices are not fully acculturated.

TRANSGENERATIONAL MUNCHAUSEN SYNDROME is generational abuse in family and social groups and a step toward acculturation.

Munchausen Syndrome in Collective Transmission
Munchausen Syndrome in Collective Transmission extends Transgenerational abuses into a community, society, or culture. It creates a social honoring, thus an honoring of the self. Group identity gives security through social cohesion and conformity.

Actions become social mores. Mores are folkways accepted without question and embody the fundamental moral views of a group. They also give power to those who perform a social ritual.

Collective Munchausen often involves some sort of perceived physical beautification, or it can signify grieving. As with other forms of Munchausen, Collective Munchausen includes various kinds of wounding. The wounding is usually, though not always, performed by one member of the group onto another.

Besides the account of Abraham, another more recent example is that of Queen Victoria of England. She thought European royalty were descendants of the lost tribes of Israel. She initiated circumcision in the royal family and circumcision spread throughout English speaking countries.

MUNCHAUSEN SYNDROME IN COLLECTIVE TRANSMISSION is a delusional transmission of a pattern of destructive behavior, harmful ritual, condition, or simulation of disease taken to clinical significance whether to a person or another person or group of persons. The act involves the transference of an alleged identity into interpersonal, family, community, societal, or cultural relationships. The act often operates by deliberate transmission from one generation to subsequent generations of unresolved conflicts, dependencies, and aggressions onto a substitute body object of heirs.

Some forms of Munchausen Syndrome in Collective Transmission may be minor, but other forms can become severe. Examples of wounding for the social purpose include, but are not necessarily limited to: flagellation, piercing, tattooing, branding, scarification, oral modification, skeletal deformation, trepanation, finger amputation, amputation of the flesh, and genital play which includes circumcision.

Collective Munchausen in Social Agency
Agency relationships involve a person called an agent who acts for and represents another person called the principal. The agent acts and represents the principal through the authority transmitted to him by the principal. The fallacy here for circumcision is that the agent, the doctor, is not the agent of the parent-principal, but is actually the principal of the infant or child. Yet, the law does not allow, nor acknowledge, any authority of agency inherent to minors or the mentally incompetent. For their protection, the social body of the courts and law enforcement are the true agents of the infant or child when collusive abuse occurs.

COLLECTIVE MUNCHAUSEN IN SOCIAL AGENCY is the agency relationship between the ‘principal’ who is the person with a primary legal agency, usually a parent or caregiver, and another person, the ‘agent,’ who accepts secondary agency, usually a doctor or shaman, that creates an act of abuse within social group behavior.

Munchausen Syndrome for Profit
Usually Munchausen motives are: attention, self-glorification, and obtaining adulation from others. Yet financial gain can be another motive. This may involve the collusion of a perpetrator with an expert. For example: a complainant and an attorney. An example would be a case where people can take advantage of the California Disabilities Act. This Act allows any individual to sue landowners or renters whose buildings and parking lots do not conform to disabled access codes. This has been successful even in cases where the landowner was to code when repairs were made and thus exempt from the Act. Settlements occur because fighting the suit would cost more.

By intentionally making their health worse, they could give the appearance of helplessness. This can gain sympathy of the populace and persuade the legal system to rule in their favor.

MUNCHAUSEN SYNDROME FOR PROFIT is the fabrication of disease or exacerbation of an existing medical condition by a person, often with a specialized agent as an attorney or special interest group, to gain sympathy from others and/or society for financial gain.

Collective Munchausen Syndrome for Profit
This group activity also has a profit motive. A connection is the Tissue Nutrient Solution (TNS) Recovery Complex. A harvested prepuce is used to produce anti-aging cosmetics to feed a Dorian Gray Syndrome – the fear of aging. Products are marketed in association with a corporation. The end product of the circumcision becomes body empowerment for the recipient, not the victim. Dr. Patricia Wexler reports some women using the products justify vanity over morality with: “When it comes to cosmetic matters, women have a: ‘Don’t ask, don’t tell me, please!’ policy.”

COLLECTIVE MUNCHAUSEN SYNDROME FOR PROFIT occurs in group activity, with the motive for profit that involves the abuse of another person.


Salem-News.com has published other articles on circumcision, you can view them at these links:

Jan-31-2008: Researcher Discloses Three-Millennial Falsification: The 2nd Commandment Forbids Circumcision

May-13-2008: Male Circumcision Ineffective in HIV Battle According to Future HIV Therapy Report

Jan-15-2008: Is Circumcision Another Form of Genital Mutilation?

Dec-07-2007: Oregon Courts Have No Right to Force Circumcision

Comments Leave a comment on this story.

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Tandy June 26, 2008 10:10 am (Pacific time)

Note: The actual country is Norway. The statistics are 60% of rapes are committed from the 2% circumcised group-- it is the only country that includes circumcision statistics with events of rape.

Sigismond June 25, 2008 11:23 am (Pacific time)

One more question. I read on one forum that the statistic concerns Norway. Is this right? Cordially yours, Sigi

Richard Matteoli June 23, 2008 4:41 pm (Pacific time)

He spoke at both. Just checked and there is no mention of this statistic in his article that is in the NOCIRC Padua 8th Symposia book. NOCIRC's web does not have the 9th Symposia of 2 years ago book for sale yet. Either way the statistic is out there.

Sigismond June 22, 2008 2:05 pm (Pacific time)

According to her titles in Padua and Seattle, it was in Seattle, last year (Male Circumcision in Europe: Is there anything we can do?), at the ninth smposium. Cordially yours, Hervé

Tandy June 22, 2008 6:59 am (Pacific time)

I believe it was the 8th International Symposium, at Padua, in 2004: http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/eighth/symp04.pdf Thanks

Van Lewis June 21, 2008 6:04 pm (Pacific time)

Tandy says: "Sigismond, it was one of the symposia put on by NOCIRC--cannot remember which year it was..I got this info from a fellow intactivist. http://www.nocirc.org/" Van responds: I believe it was the 8th International Symposium, at Padua, in 2004: http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/eighth/symp04.pdf

Tandy June 16, 2008 6:46 am (Pacific time)

"" At the Symposia last week Dr. Yngve Hofvander, a Swedish pediatrician and professor of International Child Health, Uppsala University stated that 80% of the rapes are committed by the 2% population that are circumcised. " Dear Tandy, could you please let us know what symposia was this and give us a source for this outstanding information. Sigismond, it was one of the symposia put on by NOCIRC--cannot remember which year it was..I got this info from a fellow intactivist. http://www.nocirc.org/

Richard Matteoli June 16, 2008 12:56 am (Pacific time)

Sorry if this posts twice: Tandy: That's a lot in your last post's 2 part statement: pain and brain reorganization. As for the ANESTHESIA in circumcision excuse my retort to this is: (1) Anesthesia for infant circumcision so the infant does not feel or remember the circumcisional dismemberment only tells me that if a man gives a woman the Date Rape drug so she won't feel or remember the incident - then a rape did not occur. (2) When considering circumcision as a social form of Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy the ritual is removed totally from medicine and puts circumcision within the realm of criminology. Any form of Munchausen beyond straight Munchausen Syndrome is a crime with a victim.

Sigismond June 15, 2008 1:51 pm (Pacific time)

" At the Symposia last week Dr. Yngve Hofvander, a Swedish pediatrician and professor of International Child Health, Uppsala University stated that 80% of the rapes are committed by the 2% population that are circumcised. " Dear Tandy, could you please let us know what symposia was this and give us a source for this outstanding information.

Tandy June 14, 2008 9:55 am (Pacific time)

I am so sick of that pathetic "anesthesia excuse" for allowing circumcision--science shows us that even the best form of pain relief only REDUCES the pain..and and other studies have shown that infant trauma re-wires the brain ands causes more evident behavioral consequences--including PTSD!

Richard Matteoli June 13, 2008 3:42 pm (Pacific time)

Tandy: Thanks. (1) Yes, that's the report I read about and was referencing. Doesn't speak well for America but says a lot. There is much hidden resentment among American males. All they need to do to have read the Christian Testament because there are a lot of no circumcision discussion in it. (2) Also: The memory trauma of infant circumcision when the infant is pre-verbal is stored in the amygdala and cannot be be accessed. Between ages of 3 to 5 accessable memory starts within the hippocampus. Thus these males are said to be amnesiac and their resulting actions are behavioral 'acting out.' But anesthesia for circumcision does not delete the fact that it is an assault and battery. And this does not explain why it is so common among Muslims. That's another set of factors.

Tandy June 12, 2008 9:41 am (Pacific time)

"Tandy: I think there was a national criminology study either in Finland or Norway where circumcised males were the main perpetrators of rape." Yepp! But, circumcision does redirect inherent violence in an asocial way. At the Symposia last week Dr. Yngve Hofvander, a Swedish pediatrician and professor of International Child Health, Uppsala University stated that 80% of the rapes are committed by the 2% population that are circumcised. The statistics are either from Sweden or Norway. I didn't catch which one. ? And, it is the only country that includes circumcision statistics with events of rape. Note: The actual country is Norway. The statistics are 60% of rapes are committed from the 2% circumcised group. Also: Reported rapes by country(per 100,000 women ages 15-59) USA...close to 120(sorry it's a bar graph) Spain....between 10-15 Portugal...around 5 Netherlands....around 25 Italy...less than 5 Germany...around 25 France...around 18 Denmark...around 38 Austria... around 25 Data from the Sourcebook of criminal Justice Statistics 1994

Richard Matteoli June 12, 2008 1:28 am (Pacific time)

Tandy: I think there was a national criminology study either in Finland or Norway where circumcised males were the main perpetrators of rape. This statistic may be because the Islamic women there feel freer to report such instances. Those countries do not circumcise so rapes must come from immigrants. Many Muslims have moved there as a high percent to other immigrants.

Richard Matteoli June 12, 2008 1:22 am (Pacific time)

Tandy: I've heard of men getting erections when viewing circumcisions. I thought it was kinda like a nervous autonomic response. But masturbating when some child get circumcised is truly SICK. I also read where women get really emotionally involved and psychologically stimulated by seeing the glans first exposed. Kinda like doing it mentally with a virgin. Also the report said the women stated they have an overwhelming spiritual experience. Being Islam circumcises later Lloyd deMause, a fountain of information on child abuse, illustrated the women at the Siwa Oasis masturbate their sons for circumcision. And elsewhere on the web, circumstitions.com or.org, in Turkey the boy's male sponsor masturbates him for the circumcision. Truly sick.

Tandy June 11, 2008 10:45 am (Pacific time)

Richard, I fully agree--in fact.. and interestingly, rape of women seems to occur more often by the circumcised--a "revenge motive"?! And as to the intense emotional aspects... I read a passage from a doctor who has seen medical interns sporting erections while viewing circumcisions--there seems to be a very large and sick component within circumcisers. And it has been reported that in some public Muslim circumcisions, the males viewing youths' circumcisions sport erestions and even masturbate--now THAT is sick!

Richard Matteoli June 11, 2008 12:13 am (Pacific time)

Tandy let me give you my connections: (1) I consider circumcision a form of rape. There is a category of rapists that are termed: Angry Retaliatory. (2) I also consider circumcision a form of serial sexual predation similar to serial rapists and serial killers. Within the categories of Female Serial Killers, which in the instance of circumcision both sexes apply, is the: Revenge Serial Killer. With these killings there is family discord and profit is not a motive. Intense emotion is present when the crimes become serial. Secondary victims are persons close to the primary victim. (But here the primary victim if a male is too strong to attack). Part of the emotion is from a sense of abandonment. Action is an attempt to regain a semblence of control over one's life.

Richard Matteoli June 10, 2008 2:50 pm (Pacific time)

Re: Drtheknow's comment on May 26: Sociopath's do not care about the people they use and abuse. Advocating against circumcision is not being a sociopath. The serial sexual predator, including the pro-circumcision advocates, more properly applies to the realm of sociopathy. When these people who advocate circumcision apply such accusations they best parse their words carefully. This is a mirror image accusation and a mark of the true narcissist who sees others through the image of him/herself. According to the FBI serial sexual predators are narcissistic. Serial rapists and serial killers are sociopaths, not those trying to stop them. Socialized genital rituals are form of genocidal serial sexual predation.

Richard Matteoli June 10, 2008 2:46 am (Pacific time)

Sig: What I mean by the patriarchal system is that in these areas women are subjuated. In some areas being a circumciser of girls is the only way they can make money. They cannot confront the male, or the male's system of domination in the culture itself. By not being able to confront directly, they attack indirectly. And, in this, they attack the child. This is a Transference of Aggression. But it must be remembered that this present day social relationship is evolved from FGM's origination where Southern African tribes that were conquered by the North had genetically enlongated and large labia. FGM's origination from genetic difference occurred some 5,000 years ago according to Dr. Pia Gallo of Padua University, Italy. What started as circumcision events onto a conquered people became a social event for all people possibly through intermarriage and a mixing of the large labia gene moving into the general population.

Sigismond June 5, 2008 1:20 pm (Pacific time)

"because of the strength of the patriarchal sysytem, the mothers and especially the grandmothers circumcise their young girls to deny men full womanhood." I do not understand this, could you explain. Thanks,

Sigismond June 5, 2008 1:18 pm (Pacific time)

"because of the strength of the patriarchal sysytem, the mothers and especially the grandmothers circumcise their young girls to deny men full womanhood." I do not understand this, could you explain. Thanks,

Sigismond June 5, 2008 1:15 pm (Pacific time)

Jealousy (and rage ("Rage, rage against the dying of the light...") are neurotic symptoms likely to affect the rare individuals aware of their los to circumcision; these symptoms do not affect those unconscious of their mutilation. Cordially yours,

Sigismond June 4, 2008 12:03 pm (Pacific time)

Hi, Richard, my book, together with Rosemary Romberg-Weiner's one, is published and available for free at http://intactwiky.org Cordially yours,

Richard Matteoli June 3, 2008 1:33 pm (Pacific time)

"His Body, His Right" is not on Amazon. Please tell us how to obtain a copy.

Anonymous June 1, 2008 7:13 am (Pacific time)

"... places where FGM is performed most of the girls have given oral sex by age 8. " A place where tooth-filing is performed is the Island of Bali, though Hinduist!!! Read about it in the beginning of chapter II: "HIS BODY, HIS RIGHT", of my book. However, still in order to make the young women's merchant value higher, the Chinese use foot-binding. Different customs, saim aim!!!

Sigismond June 1, 2008 7:06 am (Pacific time)

Read my article "The 2nd Commandment forbids sexual mutilation" and you'll understand that the one and only original sin is repression of autosexuality.

Sigismond June 1, 2008 7:04 am (Pacific time)

"We are told that most rapists rape because they hate women in general and that most have been abused by a woman at some time in their lives." Indeed, dear Russell, we are told a lot of nonsense. Rapist rape out of need first, then only out of hate since their autosexuality has been repressed the most often by their mother, they've got to rape when they are - or not - in urge. Read about it in Appendix I: For autosexuality of my free book (http://intaciwiki.org) "Sexual mutilation, the child's point of view". Y

Sigismond June 1, 2008 6:55 am (Pacific time)

But here is Patricia back, how good! Speaking of betrayal, let's hope that the sado-voyeurist Obama (Did he really made himself accomplice of that crime?) will betray the circumcising Jews as soon as possible :-)) Y, Michel Hervé Navoiseau-Bertaux

Sigismond June 1, 2008 6:53 am (Pacific time)

Thanks for your point, dear Richard! I ignored this; saying would fit, I think. But for "FGM"! Better word your turn! It's a long time since the ONGs dropped the bleeding "genital" for the accurate and pleasant "sexual" :-))

Richard Matteoli May 31, 2008 6:17 pm (Pacific time)

REVENGE: Kitahara was referenced by deMause in "The Universality of Incest" which can be found on the Internet  (1) There are parts of Islam where men practice pedastry and also prefer young girls.  deMause said to the effect that in some places where FGM is performed most of the girls have given oral sex by age 8.  From this, because of the strength of the patriarchal sysytem, the mothers and especially the grandmothers circumcise their young girls to deny men full womanhood.  (2) Female revenge taken against the child is because she cannot confront the male and is the main theme in the Heracles myth where Zeus was too strong for Hera, his wife, to challenge his behavior.  Thus she became the bane of Heracles who was Zeus' son from an affair with a mortal woman.  (3) This theme is even in films like Krull with the Widow in the Web who killed her son and in The Godfather Part II where Michael Corleone's wife had an abortion.  (4) According to deMause the act is Direct Incest, the social part is Indirect Incest.  (5) deMause states women who take their young girls and commit FGM with knives are just as incestuous as males who rape their young with their penises.  (6) My understanding is that it is the act of penetrating the child with a weapon - whatever that weapon is and the availability to use something depending on the person's ability.  Dysfunctional males often use knives to sexually attack women as a penile substitute

Richard Russell May 31, 2008 1:51 pm (Pacific time)

Thanks to Richard Matteoli and Henry Ruark for making it possible for all of us to have this information and to have this discussion about it. About the matter of whether revenge can be the motive when the object of revenge is not the person who caused the desire for revenge: We are told that most rapists rape because they hate women in general and that most have been abused by a woman at some time in their lives. In the US we have only recently begun to end (it is not ended yet) the practice of hazing in connection with new students in higher education (especially within some Greek Letter clubs). The entire justification for hazing is that it is a tradition that must be continued (i.e., it was done to me, therefore I must do it to someone else). We often see the spectacle of public prosecutors who do not want prisoners released after their innocence has been proven. The stated reason is that at some time the actions of the courts must be considred final, "in the interest of justice" (someone has to pay for the crime done; it doesn't matter who committed it once someone has been found guilty). As for me, these and many other things cause me to believe revenge is often the motivation for rataliatory acts against those who had nothing to do with the harm being retaliated against. And I believe revenge is a huge factor in the perpetuation of infant and child circumcision where ever it exists. In the US, all the "medical" hype is nothing more that rationalization for continuing the hazing and revenge.

Patricia Robinett May 31, 2008 1:35 am (Pacific time)

Thank you, Richard Matteoli, for putting names to some of the unconscious behaviors that have perpetuated this hideous practice. It's so easy for us humans to get caught up in the excitement of pack behavior and never even question our actions. It's time we finally really took a good look at the practice of genital cutting and realized how very absurd and abusive it is. We owe our love, respect and devotion to our babies, not to custom, habit or the tribe. Children depend on us to protect them. You can see the deep wound of betrayal on their faces after they have been circumcised. They look so bewildered, as if to say, "How could you let that happen to me?" Trust has been shattered. Anyone who has been circumcised needs a lot of very kind, loving care, to heal from that incredible trauma. Bravo to the human race! It appears we are beginning to wake up.

Richard Matteoli May 30, 2008 2:07 pm (Pacific time)

Sig: "expression." Better word, thanks. If only us Americans can understand the point of your French expression as so many Europeans and others in the world understand it. Will get to the deMause reference of Kitahara tonight. It deals with a specific aspect of FGM.

Sigismond May 30, 2008 7:20 am (Pacific time)

" "I do not agree with the revenge motive." How about "misery loves company"? How about jealousy? How about simply perverse or sick? " I mean that speaking of revenge, jealousy and so on simply passes by Dt Matteoli's outstanding discovery of a Munchausen syndrome by proxy, which is deep psychotic "self or relative"-destructive-madness and not current defaults. Cordially yours,

Sigismond May 30, 2008 7:16 am (Pacific time)

Actually, the French expression (not proverb) means something extremely pleasant.

Richard Matteoli May 29, 2008 8:14 pm (Pacific time)

Sig, maybe there is a translation problem. (1) The prepuce as the velvet pants in your French proverb may well lead one to recollect the second of four signs given Moses, who put his hand in his cloak twice at God's command, before confronting Pharoah in Exodus 2:6. Makes one think of the immunological properties in the chemicals produced by the prepuce - which also exists in females. (2) In America there is the proverb of: "Cutting one's nose off to spite oneself." In this regard I'll explain the context of the source, Lloyd deMause, that cited Kitahara's statement of circumcision being a punishment for growing up that was specific to the parts of Islam that practice Female Genital Mutilation.

tandy May 29, 2008 8:48 am (Pacific time)

"I do not agree with the revenge motive." How about "misery loves company"? How about jealousy? How about simply perverse or sick?

Sigismond May 29, 2008 8:14 am (Pacific time)

You know what, Snoopy? Circumcision is the child Jesus not inside his velvet pants but robbed from them. Cordially yours, Sigi

Henry Ruark May 28, 2008 1:51 pm (Pacific time)

Richard et al: Dialog works for ongoing learning...missed the Freud - Bernays connection but felt there had to be one with PR, as practiced, avoiding the honesty-requirement we find in swarms. Makes one wonder if cutting past the individual to swarm knowlege --as in decent, honest, open, ongoing-demo dialog, may be one way-to-go. Congress, of course, is the largest obvious-saying obstacle !! But then that must have something to do with those white envelopes and the bane of "corporate campaign contributions"...

Richard Matteoli May 28, 2008 1:03 pm (Pacific time)

Hi Jerry. Long time. Henry's "The Genius of Swarms" is a nice connection. Found the article on the Net. It leads back to Edward Bernays, Freud's nephew, who was a propangda officer in WWI. He fathered Public Relations by combining his uncle's insights with his knowledge of propaganda. Bernays considered the general population, The Herd as he called us, inferior and could be easily influenced by using 'certain techniques.' At least bees and ants are honest in their communications.

Richard Matteoli May 28, 2008 12:03 pm (Pacific time)

Hi Jerry. Long time. Felt it was time, like we discussed, to take this circumcision issue beyond medicine and into criminology/psychology - because the originators of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit (Criminal Profiling) have degrees in psychology and it should be looked into. Anything beyond straight Munchausen Syndrome is a crime with a victim. Cox's quote is so true.

Sigismond May 28, 2008 9:56 am (Pacific time)

I do not agree with the revenge motive. One can only revenge against the perpetrator or its accomplices. Revenge upon women is an issue, since the mother failed to accomplish her duty of protection. Revenge upon men is suing the circumciser. Revenge upon children is nonsensical.

Tandy May 28, 2008 7:41 am (Pacific time)

Actually all one needs is to ask oneself if something we do as a group has a rational reason--if not, then we need to ask why in the world are we doing it--and then stop doing it--and if your neighbor is doing it--judge him. Circumcision is NOT rational, and MSBP provides as reasonable an explanation for why we do this irrational nonsense of amputating normal, healthy, functioning, erogenous genital psrts off infants as any other theory.

Henry Ruark May 28, 2008 7:28 am (Pacific time)

Jerry, Richard, et al: For serious readers seeking still further mileposts along this intriguing road to real knowledge of our nature and its wonders, seek out "The Genius of Swarms" report in N. Geographic, July 07. Thanks to all for strong participation both in teaching and learning...

Henry Ruark May 27, 2008 4:06 pm (Pacific time)

P. Dohety et al: You THE Doherty, famed in several ways, or is that just cover for confrontation ? Your key-phrase is:

Jerry Norton May 27, 2008 8:28 pm (Pacific time)

Hi Richard. Brilliant insight, thank you very much. Instead of the usual infighting that often goes nowhere, you provide us with a rational mechanism to help explain odd and irrational things. In that vein, I like this quote from Harvard Professor of Divinity Harvey Cox - No aspect of human life seethes with so many unexorcised demons as does sex. No human activity is so hexed by superstition, so haunted by residual tribal lore, and so harassed by socially induced fear. For me it helps explain the inexplicable.

Henry Ruark May 27, 2008 7:54 pm (Pacific time)

R.M. et al: Thank you, sir, for that solid response, from which we can all learn --and not only about MSPB. Your last sentence rings a bell here, too, adding to the validity the response piles up on our open channel for honest dialog. Still wonder who P.H. really is; note, too, he did not add a link OR respond to I-Jones gambit.

Richard Matteoli May 27, 2008 7:00 pm (Pacific time)

Phil: (1) Good point. This is what the discussion is for. (2) MSBP is proven valid in criminology even by the FBI. Especially with the actions of health care providers and much less so for parents. American hospitals have videotaped such actions. Books have been written about them. They are termed Angels of Mercy. Peer review does not reside with medicine alone. With social rituals 'everyone' is a peer. (3) The provider creates a crisis, then steps in to take appropriate care for the patient and thus becomes the "Savior." That's vainglorious. Deaths occur, but not necessarily the original intent of some perpetrators. Some kill intentionally from some malignant thought process as sending the patient 'to a better place.' That is why I used health care providers and extended with the Malignant Hero Syndrome. (4) My connection is for historical medicine demonizing the prepuce in false science with "Cry Wolf" in so many conditions that have all been proven false. (5) Through secularization medicine has taken over as the Ritual Agent and in doing so they are altering reality - an essential part of the ritual process. (6) I can see why the British press is juxt-opposed to American criminology. Meadow went off the deep end with his MSBP, but that does not make the concept invalid. MSBP has been used against parents when there has been Failures to Diagnose genetic and other conditions as well as other times as you mentioned. (7) It is hard to include everything when condensing volumes of material for an article like this. So, to alleviate your concerns I requested the following sentence be added. "MSBP is difficult to diagnose, has been misused, but valid in proper context."

phil doherty May 27, 2008 9:32 am (Pacific time)

shame msbp is now completely discredited in the UK and Sir Roy Meadow an outcast. Also - if you would like to check this with the Brit press - there is NO scientific evidence that Msbp even exists! It has never been peer tested and the papers Sir Roy Meadow based his 'theory' on he destroyed. In the UK case after case has shown how wrong these so-called experts usually are when you look at their pet theories. Interestingly the Msbp guidelines for social services et al are now compared in the UK to the Salam witch trials. IE - say you are innocent proves you are guilty. The whole thing is just a convenient excuse for medics to hide their own incompetence. In the UK there is growing evidence that the tag Msbp is used to shut mum's up when they threaten legal action against hospitals for their clinicial mistakes (The Family Courts are closed in the UK meaning once you are accused you can't tell anyone before hand, during or afterwards!) Check it out on the UK press website...

Henry Clay Ruark May 27, 2008 9:02 am (Pacific time)

To all: Right on cue cometh this Edit from the august, respected New York TIMES: "May 27, 2008 Editorial It’s the Genes, Stupid "Social scientists are stumped. Why do we bother to go to the polls when we know our individual vote has no chance of determining the result of a national election? Variations in turnout — by age, race, income or whatever — are hard to fit into a theory of human conduct that assumes that people are rational. But with time to spare before the November election, molecular biology is coming to the rescue. In the same way that researchers have teased out a role for genes in determining sexual orientation or the propensity to smoke, they are deploying genetics to understand our political choices. "That sounds like a stretch, and it may well be. But there is tempting evidence of a hereditary component to political choices. There is a strong correlation between the partisan choices of parents and children. Studies comparing identical and fraternal twins suggest that genes are at work alongside the social and psychological influence of parents. Political scientists at the University of California, San Diego have gone another step, identifying specific genes associated with voter participation and partisanship --------- SO we may be onto something of essential importance to any further development of democracy --with implications for education, all services, and voter-power, too.

Henry Ruark May 27, 2008 8:07 am (Pacific time)

Tandy et al: Yours surely confirms my long-held strong feeling, shared by millions of others seeking to sustain eight years of neocon seeming-conquest while despoiling our democracy. There are other obvious perpetrator-identifiers now coming fully to the surface, and I do believe open, honest, democratic dialog has much to do with that fact. Please make sure to follow closely what psychological --sometimes also psychotic-- studies are now showin us in much more depth and detail about how, and sometimes why, too, the human mind processes bits-and-bytes of background, data, and human experience as it does. We may just find strong clues as to how we can remediate life's impacts for those unfortunate enough to suffer unduly --and perhaps, eventually, as we continue to learn, unnecessarily, too.

Tandy May 27, 2008 6:15 am (Pacific time)

"Cry Wolf" is the usual attempt to discredit any information that exposes the underbelly of those trying to perpetuate their own proclivity for perversion. This is a cheap and empty tactic--and I liken it to: "Character assassination is the last refuge of the incompetent". Since there is no RATIONAL reason for RIC, what remains is the IRRATIONAL!

Richard Matteoli May 26, 2008 11:37 pm (Pacific time)

Again, yes Henry. The concept is general, yet the example in the letter is specific. Though I mentioned other ritual events that harm the body per-se, this concept applies very well in other social contexts - as the political arena with its negotiated hidden moods and motivations.

Richard Matteoli May 26, 2008 11:24 pm (Pacific time)

Yes Henry the motivation of revenge is present in some. Michio Kitahara in "A Cross-Cultural Test of the Freudian Theory of Circumcision" - International Journal of Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy, stated that: "Genital mutilation, which is always a punishment for growing up..."

Henry Ruark May 26, 2008 7:58 pm (Pacific time)

Van et al: One reason I sent ref. to "revenge" is that, connecting the dots for "big picture" one can see same situation well reflected in past ten years of political mayhem and manipulation...surely also painful-procedure which we need to remediate, too.

Van Lewis May 26, 2008 7:44 pm (Pacific time)

Thank you Dr.Matteoli, for a most interesting discussion of Munchausen Syndrome as it relates to damaging but socially accepted abuses, and to Henry Ruark for bringing our attention to revenge as an underlying driving force in abuse. Revenge is one of the deepest motives for circumcising. The greatest risk for being circumcised is being born to a same-sex parent who is circumcised. "If I have to put up with genital mutilation for life, so do you, kid!" Circumcising is child abuse, plain and simple. The greatest risk factor for becoming a child abuser is being abused as a child. This deeper, stronger, usually unconscious motive for circumcising one's children is papered over by social, medical and religious "justifications". Mutilating a child's sex healthy organs is unjustifiable, but revenge doesn't care about justification. Any excuse will do, or none at all. The driving force is revenge seeking. Nothing else really counts. As W.H. Auden said in his poem, "September 1, 1939": "I and the public know What all school children learn, Those to whom evil is done Do evil in return."

Henry Ruark May 26, 2008 6:48 pm (Pacific time)

I-T-K et al: Better coninue study, friend ITK, since it takes expert to know when "Wolf !" means scam and when "Wolf" means "I need help !" The "revenge" ref. gives you some small part of what it takes to tell 'em apart, and be thankful you don't have to do so professionally, doubtful from your over-simplified response, which amplified here since it may be misleading. They ain't ALL grifters and it is dangerous, not only to them but to many others, too, to fall into that easy-trap, indicated by your "grifters". For which I know some of the consequences after some three years with woman psychiatrist as teacher, dealing daily with specific, diversified victims.

Dr. Intheknow May 26, 2008 5:43 pm (Pacific time)

Essentially another name for this is "Cry Wolf", and people of all races/ethnicities use it to their own peril. Some use this method more than others, so please note these people/groups for they are nothing more than grifters that love to play others, aka, sociopath's.

Henry Ruark May 26, 2008 4:10 pm (Pacific time)

For the "serious" reader, insight into human passionate behavior includes "revenge"; for which the NEW YORKER, 4/21/08 presents: "Vengeance Is Ours: What can tribal societies tell us about our need to get even ?"; by Jared Diamond, UCLA Professor of Geography, from personal contact in New Guinea et al. You will find surprising parallels with current political climate and even to Comments right here ! Don't miss Letters column in next issue (4/28/08), carrying responses from several leading authorities in psychiatry, who support, extend and illuminate what Diamond experienced.

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