Homosexuals? The Pizzen Controversy

Phillip Leveque has spent his life as a Combat Infantryman, Physician, Toxicologist and Pharmacologist.

(MOLALLA, Ore.) - An article "Army Homosexuals: Let Them Serve" created a firestorm of Pizzen controversy. My comments were that ANYONE who volunteers for the armed services should be allowed to serve. Homos (forgive the abbreviation) have been in all armies and all of civilization since time began. (Read your bible).

I'm in no way demeaning, or advocating or supporting the situation. I'm just stating facts as I see them.

If the services discharged 12,000, there were probably about that many they haven't discovered yet.

Examples of discrimination by "white normal Caucasians" are rife in American history. Blacks, Orientals, Native Americans and Hispanics have been discriminated against since the word GO, and women of every race have been discriminated against as well.

Discrimination for sexual orientation is really weird. Does anyone really think that a gay man or a lesbian wants that type of discrimination thrown at themselves?

I'm convinced they are born that way and there is probably nothing so devastating for a spouse to find out after 10 or 20 years of marriage that the spouse is/was really a closeted homosexual.

Religion has nothing to do with it. Whether priestly pedophiles are homos is up for grabs. They surely could be.

WAC's in WWII were considered by many G.I.'s to be lesbians. There certainly were some. One of the respondents to my article, Thomas, (I'm guessing he is a shrinkologist) berates me for my personal story that others of my six-man team of frontline scouts thought I was homosexual because I didn't smoke cigarettes. My guys smoked like chimneys to assert their manliness.

A sideline to this story is that severe prejudice doled out to the Japanese American 442nd Regiment, who were all volunteers and had to prove their patriotism. The 442nd was the most decorated Regiment in American war history.

Other examples of the discriminated are the all-black Tuskegee Airmen and the all-black 761st Tank Destroyer Battalion. They proved their valor "way above and beyond". It took several decades, but the tankers eventually got SIX Congressional Medals. The actions of the 761st Tank Battalion and the Tuskegee Airmen were among of the reasons why President Truman desegregated the military in 1948.

There are certainly Army homosexuals who proved their valor as real fighting men.

*******************************************************
You can email your questions to the doctor: newsroom@salem-news.com

Watch for Dr. Phil Leveque's video question and answer segments about medical marijuana with Bonnie King.

Other articles and video segments about medical marijuana on Salem-News.com:

Salem-News.com Marijuana Coverage

Where and How to Smoke Legal Marijuana without Fear of Arrest in the U.S.

Eulogy of a Great Warrior: Hoss Plourde

The Ripple Effect How Marijuana Laws Are Impacting Society

Audit the Audit

Welcome Home, Tom

Comments Leave a comment on this story.

All comments and messages are approved by people and self promotional links or unacceptable comments are denied.

Jim Grant February 1, 2009 1:41 pm (Pacific time)

The problem with you multi culturals is you never actually acknowlage discrimination against white men that has been rampant for YEARS in our nation. When I was in Iraq a freak named Merrit Draven was shooting up my morphin stock and was basically given a free pass after I turned his asian ass in. I WAS PUNISHED BY THE MULTI-CULTS who hate white men and women; AND NORMAL FAMILIES. America is ABOUT to fail because of YOUR desire to have a multicultural America. Rewarding buisness for their DIVERSITY and not production. You guys are the reason their may be a struggle in America within the next few years. Thank you....AND GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF THE SAND.

Jefferson January 4, 2008 3:51 pm (Pacific time)

Godofchaos we share the same assessment as do a number of my associates who have come to this site to actually see where we got some of our lyrics for the karoke machine. The TFI has become a source of great humor and singing enjoyment for a continually growing group of people. Note : A few have also enjoyed the advertising on this site and have contacted some of the advertisers for services- so it's been a win-win. Thanks TFI!

Godsofchaos January 4, 2008 11:26 am (Pacific time)

"I do make light of TFI, as I do all lightweight's who provide questionable and misleading statements..."Jefferson I also noticed that his posts have little substance. That is why I don't hold his opinion to highly.

Jefferson January 4, 2008 9:30 am (Pacific time)

Godofchaos I assure my statement about TFI's eyesight was based on something dealing with a past post of his, not because of a disability. Though from my experience, if an individual has a disability that prevents them from serving in combat it would also prevent them from continuing military service, normally! So if this eye was that bad I can only wonder, did he receive a medical discharge or maybe the eye was not that bad? I frankly have other concerns about TFI and the message he is trying to inculcate than his non-combatant military service during a time that military service was nearly universal. I am very sensitive to people's disabilities and would never make light of them. I do make light of TFI, as I do all lightweight's who provide questionable and misleading statements...

Godsofchaos January 3, 2008 10:16 pm (Pacific time)

"Henry/TFI, no doubt a frustrated non-combatant, and Audie Murphy wannabe, who because of a bum eye was kept out of battle, simply cannot appreciate this individual and his accomplishments because he does not like those "who do" what "non-doers" like him do not do...nothing!"Jefferson I distaste in this statment because it isn't his fault that he had bad eye sight. However it is his fault for being cantankerous.

Jefferson January 3, 2008 9:24 am (Pacific time)

Update for you people who may not be familiar with LTC. North's legal situation: He, like most people who have been improperly prosecuted, appealed his case and the convictions were "VACATED!" The appeals court noted that his 5th Amendment rights were violated, among other legal miscues. Note: Even the far left ACLU assisted this Patriot's improper prosecution. LTC. North is a patriot and a war hero; he received the Silver Star, two Purple Hearts and other combat decorations for his "combat" service in Vietnam. Henry/TFI, no doubt a frustrated non-combatant, and Audie Murphy wannabe, who because of a bum eye was kept out of battle, simply cannot appreciate this individual and his accomplishments because he does not like those "who do" what "non-doers" like him do not do...nothing! As far as his approximate 12 trips to Iraq (how many to Afghanistan?), and Henry/TFI is questioning who paid for the trips? Now that sure sounds important!

Godsofchaos January 2, 2008 7:13 pm (Pacific time)

who knows how to be respectful, even though one "may be polar opposite in ideology; you have pretty well displayed that that is an ability quite alien to you Henry/TFI..."Jefferson Took the words right out of my mouth. I wish they (Neal Feldman and Henry Ruark) would be more like Tim King and debate you in a civil and polite tone. Tim King handles debates in intelligent and for the most part been in civil tone(everyone has a bad post at some point). The way Neal Feldman and Henry Ruark handle debates is they make it nothing more than a mudslinging contest by implying your stupid or saying it outright, claiming that you do not have the expertise to speak and at one point Neal Feldman tried to start a physical confrontation. The Editor didn't seem to happy at him.

Jefferson January 2, 2008 6:22 pm (Pacific time)

Feldman you appear to know nothing of military policies nor the UCMJ, you simply display why the public school system has failed so many people, i.e. , GAO's primary source with this matter is the DOD, get it? And as far as being afraid of gays or anyone else with guns coming after me, well, I'm here and many are not...just did my job, and made people like you and the "b"ad"m"itton [BM]warrior Henry/TFI are a lot safer. Those of you who would like to know more about LTC North (Ret.) he is often on the FOX news channel (the leading cable network that has an audience larger than all the combined audience's of the other cable news shows...guess why? Yep! Same reason conservative talk radio leaves the lib. radio in the dust...people want the truth not socialist talking point's) and also has a weekly television program. Henry/TFI: Dwight Eisenhower, right after George Washington was the best president America has ever had. It's been down hill since 1960, until the Gipper saved us from the turmoil Jimmah Cottahh caused, then the damage from Clinton may have been the proverbial straw. Fortunately we will get another republican elected this november, but it won't be till 2010 until we can get back on track by taking over congress once again. By the way Henry, why would someone like LTC. North (Ret.) be interested in being interviewed by you? I think he would even prefer a deferrment warrior like Paul Linnman don't you? Or at least a combat veteran...who knows how to be respectful, even though one may be polar opposite in ideology; you have pretty well displayed that that is an ability quite alien to you Henry/TFI...

Godsofchaos January 1, 2008 7:45 pm (Pacific time)

"interesting and demanding".Henry Ruark As is every year.

Henry Ruark January 1, 2008 6:57 pm (Pacific time)

Al M. et al: Hang in there, kid, we going to get back to "normal" soon and get on with demanding agenda we all know we face. Best to you in coming New Year...sure to be "interesting and demanding".

Albert Marnell January 1, 2008 4:23 pm (Pacific time)

Neal, Hank, Jeff, et al: I think there maybe something wrong with me because I try too hard and only wish the world be a better place for as many people as possible. Happy New Year!

Henry Ruark January 1, 2008 3:48 pm (Pacific time)

To all: WHO in H...is surprised by N-N demand DOD only data and statements be accepted as kosher, correct, commendable and accountable. These are the very cult-cabal kind for which our great General Eisenhower himself felt he must warn us. Does N-N now wish to attack Ike, too, all along with FDR, Morse, and others ? Odd all turn out to differ from his perspective --which "makes to laugh" similar charges smeared against some of us here. While at it, have not heard from N-N re Gen. Smedley Butler, either, surely fine offset to anything from his Col. North, whom he has now elevated as hero. Will await with huge anticipation anything further from N-N re possible North "interview" by any method possible, right here in this open channel...and may even be able to set it up for tv-news in state, since some of my sons have solid contacts with news directors in three major situations. Hey, that WOULD be fun-and-games...good enough to make sure anyone in good faith would even do it for free...!!

Neal Feldman January 1, 2008 1:57 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson - re: only DoD source relevant I guess you would have the foxes watch the chickens, huh? The GAO holds ALL govt agencies accountable. It is an outside review source. As such much more credible than that which is being reviewed. The DoD has its agenda which it promotes within itself. As such self-serving comments by the DoD can be taken with a salt lick. Same with other agencies too. Checks and balances. But since you agree with the DoD line of course you only want that source used. Too bad. Ah welll...

Neal Feldman January 1, 2008 1:51 pm (Pacific time)

Albert Marnell - I think it is obvious what is wrong with Jefferson. Don't you? Ah well...

Neal Feldman January 1, 2008 1:47 pm (Pacific time)

Godsofchaos - learn how to spell arrogant and spiteful please. And Henry does not usually speak like that... just to the few who deserve it (like Jefferson and you it seems for the most part). Henry and I disagree on things from time to time quite strongly in fact I wager but we do not resort to the immature knuckle-dragging styles and dishonesty of Jefferson and you. Maybe you were just raised poorly but that is hardly an excuse. Ah well...

Neal Feldman January 1, 2008 1:42 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson - I know the ruling does not specifically apply to the military.. I'm saying it is another domino against the policy and it puts the military in the position of having to defend a policy ruled unconstitutional outside of itself. It has not been able to mount any credible defense. That is a fact. And many like me continue to point out how the policy harms and undermines the purpose of the military. That is another fact. Like all other changes before the DADT policy is going the way of men only and whites only. You can face that fact or you can continue to just wallow in your delusions. Why is it you are so afraid of gays with guns, hmmmm? Ah well...

Jefferson January 1, 2008 9:30 am (Pacific time)

Albert there is only one primary source in this matter and that is the Department of Defense. Move on Albert. You have a super intellect Albert, I really do appreciate your viewpoints and analysis, but please try to understand that for some of us we do like to use primary source material when it is available. Happy New Year!

Albert Marnell January 1, 2008 12:28 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson, Happy New Year to you too. I think your compliment was sincere. I just want to repeat the definition of a "primary resource". A primary source is a document, speech, or other sort of evidence written, created or otherwise produced during the time under study. Primary sources offer an inside view of a particular event. Examples include: Original documents: autobiographies, diaries, e-mail, interviews, letters, minutes, news film footage, official records, photographs, raw research data, speeches, Creative works: art, drama, films, music, novels, poetry Relics or artifacts: buildings, clothing, DNA, furniture, jewelry, pottery. An Associated Press reporter is a primary source. "Evidence written, created or otherwise produced during a specific time period". Primary sources can be discredited also such as a forged documents and conspiratorial lying. Anyway it is time to move on. We have a different point of view on this one.

Henry Ruark January 1, 2008 12:28 pm (Pacific time)

Anonymous et al: You're missing some pieces of puzzle here...this tone and content of dialog began with use of "do-nothings" and "demented" and more than 50 similar words (I kept list) from N=N. Only after protest to S-N chiefs re abuse of privilege of using channel did some of us resort to simple self-defense, while seeking documentation and decent full ID response from those hiding behind tree and sniping at will without either responsibility or accountability. Surely one has the right to such protective action, when attacked after repeated and on-record friendly and open early response ? Read the record "with own eyes" (pardon repetition !) and consider further response "with own brain" (ditto !), then we can become both rational and responsible again here, for all to enjot, share and learn-mutually --as openly and comprehensively contemplated and completed for several previous years.

Jefferson January 1, 2008 9:29 am (Pacific time)

Godsofchaos January 1, 2008 9:12 am (Pacific time)

"Why don't you fight with your wife if you are frustrated rather than doing it with people that you do not even know on this site."Albert Marnell Wouldn't be better to pick a fight with some stranger on the Internet than pick a fight with your wife? Hell hath no fury....

Anonymous January 1, 2008 8:34 am (Pacific time)

"...doubt if our final destination will turn out to be the same. Prepare yourself for some superheat..." And Henry completes his plunge off the deep end. Think your perspective new employers, sorry, "clients", will be impressed with this latest nonsense? I surely am not.

Henry Ruark January 1, 2008 6:40 am (Pacific time)

GofC: Happy to see you can spell "wolf", but suggest you install sp-checker for other simple words. Your choice where you put it, but I have suggestion if you need help with it. Now that we've sample each other's semi-skills in non-verbose attack-mode, we can perhaps return to honest, open, democratic dialog, based on non-tree/hiding accounting and acceptance of open and public responsibility. For sample of solid work here, see Lens's education takeout and accompanying comments from several not in our W/D category. Yr pseudo-name intrigues me --can't remember from where you appropriated it, but somehow familiar --or is it just the tone and content of your Comments ??

Albert Marnell December 31, 2007 7:21 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson, The links that I provided only proved my points. Did you check up on them? What is wrong with you? Did you read about the Bilderberg? I doubt it. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14052513/ http://www.feastofhateandfear.com/articles/from_aye.html I never communicated with you until about two weeks ago. Why don't you fight with your wife if you are frustrated rather than doing it with people that you do not even know on this site.

Godsofchaos December 31, 2007 7:11 pm (Pacific time)

"And yes, I did use mirror test on this, and I do sign it openly, publicly and with some understandable relish."Henry Ruark Go ahead show everyone that you can write aggorent and spitful posts and relish it. "--until you revealed yourself by tree-hiding snipe-shotting for pages of you-know-what, repeated re others-here, too, in same ridiculous,continuing, irresponsible, cowardly neocon behaviours."Henry Ruark Since you accuse everyone who disagrees of being guilty of such stated crimes this quote has little mass to it. You can only cry wolf so many times before it loses it verbal power.

Henry Ruark December 31, 2007 12:20 pm (Pacific time)

N-N: Good...go enjoy grandchildren and (malignly-meant) game, while you still can. When that final moment does arrive (as it will for me, too,all too soon) hope you can recall that trigger-squeeze and sights on target situation, and longtime, oldstyle waterboarding to soothe and solace your departure. We can perhaps continue dialog then, but doubt if our final destination will turn out to be the same. Prepare yourself for some superheat, but after what you claim you did all your service life, that should be no problem. I'll whisk wings at you if any such opportunity doth come my way...and best wishes to you while you wait for that final moment, always aware of what you claim you did. FYI, my Irish guys worked the boat on the way over, and then built things the hard way when they got here. Perhaps that's why my sensitivities tend towards the common people, while yours go you know where, as fully demonstrated in your own superior-always attitudes displayed openly and publicly here. You will recall that you chose to use the demeaning words and statement you did, after at least ten responses in which I addressed you, as is my wont, as "friend" --until you revealed yourself by tree-hiding snipe-shotting for pages of you-know-what, repeated re others-here, too, in same ridiculous,continuing, irresponsible, cowardly neocon behaviours. And yes, I did use mirror test on this, and I do sign it openly, publicly and with some understandable relish.

Jefferson December 31, 2007 9:54 am (Pacific time)

Marnell the post's that provided the data that exposed you, was not mine. Deal with it, other people understand you better than you do yourself. The individuals who called Henry/TFI on his communication style: Kudos! But at his point in his life, do not expect a change. Feldman the USSC ruling that you alluded to does not apply to the military, get it? People when I first came on this site and started to post, I was very cordial when I made my different viewpoints, then I started to get insults and then it just started going tit for tat (please note how certain people write to posters that challenge them---maybe not on this topic, but others). It seems that when these people do not like your viewpoints, they also claim you wrote something you didn't. What Henry/TFI does is go back and do some cut and paste (cherry-pick) and take everything out of context. This is the classic behavior of a narcissistic personality, and there is no medication that can ameliorate. Suffice I have now learned to enjoy it...two of my granddaughters are taking some of Henry's/TFI verbiage and putting it on a karoke machine. I will check legal and see if I have to pay a royalty and will forward him the appropriate remuneration. But how do you place a value of something that is this much fun? Thanks Henry/TFI!

Henry Ruark December 31, 2007 5:56 am (Pacific time)

JustM/O et al: Agree in most cases to ignore, but here in special situation since site is now viewed by my potential clients as I return to writing/consulting necessity after six years struggle with wife dying from Altheimer's. SO malign personal attack designed to damage channel leaves me then with little option except to defend what we have solidly accomplished in past two years --as well as intense and heavy personal involvement in belief that our democracy depends on return to non-combative, rational and reasonable --AND fully democratic !-- mutual learning to lead to solid citizen's responsibility decisions. ANY observation of ongoing events in Congress and Oregon Legislature confirms fears here, and emphasizes the absolute necessities now so clealy evident for anyone capable of "seeing with own eyes" and cogitating on what is highly visible everywhere.

Not Buying What You're Selling December 30, 2007 9:17 pm (Pacific time)

Sorry for misspelling your name. It was not intentional. I didn't pay enough attention to the spelling.

Neal Feldman December 30, 2007 8:32 pm (Pacific time)

Not Buying What You're Selling, Feed - Never said sex was uncontrollable. But the govt has no business controlling it between consenting adults in private... period. You have yet to produce a coherent argument to the contrary. And playing feeble pathetic games with people's names is usually outgrown by the third grade. Nice to see the level of mentality (and immaturity) you choose to present. But it is clearly the best you can manage. How sad. Ah well...

Neal Feldman December 30, 2007 8:29 pm (Pacific time)

Bizzarre Arguments - no jumping down throats. The guy is a paranoid homophobic bigot according to his posts. Merely pointed it out. He refuses to accept the truth about himself. It was pretty pathetic. Ah well...

Albert Marnell December 30, 2007 8:29 pm (Pacific time)

I agree with Just My Opinion.

Neal Feldman December 30, 2007 8:27 pm (Pacific time)

Wishing the Issue Away Isn't Going t - The days of anti-sodomy statutes is done. The USSC already ruled this and so long as it is in private between consenting adults (not with interpersonal power issues like subordinates etc) it is none of anyone's business including the military. What difference does it make if they just have vaginal sex or oral sex? The only reason for it is because gays cannot have vaginal sex by definition. But the vast majority of all forms of 'sodomy' (basically a religious term to define sex without religious sanction) is done by heterosexuals anyway. Pervs need to get their noses out of other people's bedrooms. Ah well...

Just My Opinion. December 30, 2007 6:36 pm (Pacific time)

Henry, just leave them alone. It takes a bigger man to ignore. The personal attacks are immature, regardless of who started them. Just My Opinion.

Henry Ruark December 30, 2007 6:05 pm (Pacific time)

Anon et al: You missing several early pieces, friend-Anon. First words used re my Op Ed writing, by N-N, included "loser", "non-do'er", and "demented", among others even more poisonous. Snce then more than 50 similar situations have followed, with others of similar nature re Neal et al. Do not have to sit still while someone snipes from behind tree, when own record is right out there for all to see...which is entire point here. IF N-N ID's self and thus establishes same level and kind of start as we others are required to do, will welcome any kind of dialog, discussion or debate with him. Which is what has been offered now more than 20 times, on record here for all to see, with no response. SO similar re Op Eds by each of us, requiring his ID to avail himself of that sure opportunity: and I await response. Let him put up or shut up, which is fair rule for any and all here. Dialog is dialog and requires good faith on both ends, and that does not allow hiding behind tree and sniping by the barrelful, which is height of irresponsibility and lack of decent accountability in anybody's book.

Anonnn December 30, 2007 5:46 pm (Pacific time)

Henry, do you have to "pound your chest" and declare yourself the only one whose opinion can count due to your number of years as a reporter? Why did you personally start the attack, when none were sought and no personal attack was made against you (other than asking for clarification about what you were trying to say?) If this is your M.O. in a forum like this, then perhaps you have outlived your usefulness to this site?

Henry Ruark December 30, 2007 3:36 pm (Pacific time)

To all: See Comment under Education story. If these two such large and perfect communicators, how about listing publications paid for by national editors ? Only proof required for

Albert Marnell December 30, 2007 4:58 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson, These are for you, you seemed to overlook them. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14052513/ http://www.feastofhateandfear.com/articles/from_aye.html

Henry Ruark December 30, 2007 3:36 pm (Pacific time)

To all: See Comment under Education story. If these two such large and perfect communicators, how about listing publications paid for by national editors ? Only proof required for "see with own eyes" is actual check with dates, amounts, etc. If that not proof enough, how about piles of magazine copies, reports, studies, and ongoing files, as demonstrated here and cited via date, publication and pages. My style may stultify them, but suggest that may be from their internal and intentional denials of responsibility for "hide behind tree" cowardice in conversation here, which is NOT debate...debate demanding immediate characterizing information about debaters, which they continue to avoid at all costs. It is obvious who it is here who "pontificates" and who seeks solid responsibility and consequential accountability for and to the readers here.

Godsofchaos December 30, 2007 2:08 pm (Pacific time)

"Do you actually try to pontificate, or is it habitual?"Anonymous I think he is trying to show off his intelligence. To bad for Henry Ruark such posts do not impress me. One of the skills of being a good debater is you are clear and concise. If noone can understand what point you are trying to make you have failed to get your message across.

Anonymous December 30, 2007 1:50 pm (Pacific time)

Henry, I have no clue what you are trying to say. Could you write in plain, simple English, please? Do you actually try to pontificate, or is it habitual?

Henry Ruark December 30, 2007 1:30 pm (Pacific time)

To all: What must one make of constant reference to "girly boys" by old geek wellknown here ? Given age and revealed psychological makeup, seems to me this is further clue more valuable than reference to only two children...wonder why no more, and how these two happened to arrive --and, possibly, given potential so revealed, from whence. If one comments here, on pattern so set by him, this kind of reference surely permissible at least as much as "demented", "non-doer" and other demeaning comments all on record here and permitted.

Godsofchaos December 30, 2007 12:45 pm (Pacific time)

"I don't know if they are closet gays or not, but one of them threatened to meet someone else and I guess they meant to fight"Bizzarre Arguments I know but I...... 1)agreeed with him and felt it must be stated again. 2)If they want a fight they have to come on my terf. 3) If they are gay they need to come to terms that non-gays are going to feel uncomfortable in such situations.

Not Buying What You're Selling, Feed December 30, 2007 12:40 pm (Pacific time)

Actually, feedman, I was able to abstain from sexual intercourse for several years until I met my wife. Sexual acts can be controlled.

Bizzarre Arguments December 30, 2007 12:31 pm (Pacific time)

Godsofchaos, watch out. Someone posted a similar statement (about not wanting to showed with gays) and feldman (fed-upman?) and albert marnell jumped down his (her?) throat. I don't know if they are closet gays or not, but one of them threatened to meet someone else and I guess they meant to fight.

Wishing the Issue Away Isn't Going t December 30, 2007 12:28 pm (Pacific time)

Actually, sodomy in all forms is against the UCMJ. And, if brought to the attention of leaders, and if proven, both men and women are discharged for oral sex. But, straight people are not given general or even honorable discharges for THEIR behavior. Sound mighty one-sided and discriminatory to me.

Godsofchaos December 30, 2007 12:23 pm (Pacific time)

"There are certainly Army homosexuals who proved their valor as real fighting men."Dr. Phillip Leveque True many people from all walks of life have served their conuntry well beyond the call of duty throughout history. Some of the most toughest soldiers in history were gay,think the greece amry that litterly chained itself together. "No less stupid than the 'DADT' policy of the US military regarding gays."Neal Feldman However I think it would be better to sperate them form the nomral amry by giving them different sleeping quaters and showers. I would feel a little unevered if a guy was scoping me out in the shower or I know someone was gay was sleeping next to me while I slept.

Anonymous December 30, 2007 12:17 pm (Pacific time)

THe point of the statistics, I think, was to illucidate the fact that most gays are released from service just like non-gays. Only a few choose to "come out of the closet". I know for a fact that some gays are released for frequenting bars where drugs are common. They say it is because they are gay AFTER they get two warnings and then get kicked out. Also, the other post indicated that gays have a hard time getting out when the decide the service is no9t right for them. The military doesn't WANT to let them go, but when they (or straights) really want out, they have an easy was to say, "adios!". It was like my time in the service, when some women would get pregnant to get a "get out of jail free" card. Once releived of duty, they were free to get abortions.

Neal Feldman December 30, 2007 10:42 am (Pacific time)

How misleading Can One Be? - How convenient. Declare an immutable aspect of someone to just be 'conduct' then when you discharge them you can claim it was 'for conduct'. Kinda like declaring that blacks have a 'conduct' of allowing their skin to get too dark (there are treatments.. look at Michael Jackson) so that you can purge the military of blacks for the 'conduct' of allowing their skin to be too dark. After all we have 'unit cohesiveness' that requires all be exactly the same, right? Sound stupid? No less stupid than the 'DADT' policy of the US military regarding gays. Ah well...

Neal Feldman December 30, 2007 10:36 am (Pacific time)

Albert Marnell - That is true only if you care to ever get along with such a person. I have neither the need nor the desire to get along with the likes of Jefferson so I give no slack to his moronic delusional neocon nonsense. If he hates me and I enrage him I consider those to be plusses on my resume`. LOL! Ah well...

Jefferson December 30, 2007 9:16 am (Pacific time)

Marnell it appears someone has engaged in some competent research to expose your "2 million" number as "extremely" misleading. Kudos! What I had posted at a previous time dealt with how the UCMJ was applied to homosexuals who acted out in a combat zone, and rightfully put them in prison where they died, and hopefully it was a painful and lingering death, because they should have received the death penalty from the particular case I discussed. I do not expect a non-combatant, much less a non-veteran to understand how important it is to maintain proper discipline within the military environment. You should just accept the fact that this is beyond your experience and move on to area's that you have more of a background in, e.g. current medications being used for the mentally ill. Have a great New Year Marnell, and watch out for those dangerous escalating isotherms that the Gorons have been warning us about! Maybe feldman can provide a map, for he appears to be well-versed in climatology and all other gaseous related topics...

Albert Marnell December 30, 2007 7:20 am (Pacific time)

The bottom line is that people should be judged individually for their behavior not their orientation, race, religion (don't forget Islam), or any other non-issue. Are they going to start a policy that says "Don't ask, Don't Tell If Your Islamic"? There are plenty of Christians that are uncomfortable with Islam. Deal with it!

facts December 30, 2007 1:43 am (Pacific time)

I googled the name of the article, came right up. As for Goyem (or Goyim), goyem was not found in Wiki. Goyim, however, was - on the same page as Goy - as the plural form of the word. In the modern Usage section, this was said "As it happens with ethnic stereotypes for "not one of us" in various cultures, a stereotype of a goy, as expressed in Jewish humor, bears derogatory elements, e.g., as Hillel Halkin writes: "A stereotypical goy acts blindly; a stereotypical Jew thinks before acting," [7] when commenting on skit of Jack Benny: when a mugger comes upon him: "your money or your life", and prods him with the gun, he protests "I'm thinking it over!" The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia defines it this way: Goiim, This word, rendered in the King James Version "nations," "heathen," "Gentiles," is commonly translated simply "nations" in the Revised Version (British and American). In Genesis 14:1 where the King James Version has "Tidal, king of nations," the Revised Version (British and American) retains in the text the Hebrew "Goiim" as a proper name. Some identify with Gutium. The Hebrew word is similarly retained in Joshua 12:23. Or check this link: http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm#Goyim and says this: "There is nothing inherently insulting about the word "goy." In fact, the Torah occasionally refers to the Jewish people using the term "goy." Most notably, in Exodus 19:6, G-d says that the Children of Israel will be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," that is, a goy kadosh. Because Jews have had so many bad experiences with anti-Semitic non-Jews over the centuries, the term "goy" has taken on some negative connotations, but in general the term is no more insulting than the word "gentile." As for the site "feast of hate and fear", yes, they do reference that definition. Please note that this particular article was never released, and no sources are referenced. In the first 20 pages resulting from each of the spellings, the "feast" listing is the only defining the word as cattle.

Some only Say "Gay" to Get Out December 30, 2007 12:09 am (Pacific time)

How Many of these are distorted? --- --- In some cases… commanders are not dismissing soldiers who come to them and say: "I'm homosexual. Let me out." - - "Linda," one of the linguists at the Defense Language Instititute, revealed her homosexuality to her company commander last May. She expected to be immediately discharged. She wasn't. - - "When she revealed that she was gay, her company commander refused to accept her statement, replying that her claim was 'not credible,'" said Nathaniel Frank, a scholar with UCSB's Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military. "This is an option commanders have if they simply want to ignore the statement and say, 'Get back to work.'" - - A retired naval petty officer who opposes war with Iraq…said he could understand why some straight service members might try to pass themselves off as gay to avoid the conflict. The Washington, D.C.-based Servicemembers' network, which has received hundreds of calls from gay soldiers since troops started being called up, said such attempts are a possibility. - - Linda, who now lives in Phoenix, was eventually discharged, but only after she submitted 10 statements from acquaintances verifying her sexuality, and in the face of more static from her commander. - - http://www.gaysb.org/gays_military.htm

Better Stats re: Gays in Uniform December 29, 2007 11:03 pm (Pacific time)

Estimates suggest that more than 36,000 gay men and lesbians are serving in active duty, representing 2.5 percent of active duty personnel. When the guard and reserve are included, nearly 65,000 men and women in uniform are likely gay or lesbian, accounting for 2.8 percent of military personnel. I wonder how many non-gays are dismissed every year? ----- http://www.urban.org/uploadedPDF/411069_GayLesbianMilitary.pdf - - - - - - - - - -

Let's Get the Facts and Figures Stra December 29, 2007 10:53 pm (Pacific time)

Actually, there would have to be closer to 150,000 gays in the military in any given year if Leveque's (10%) figure is accurate. That means that only six-tenths of one percent (0.6%) of the gays are dismissed in any year.

How misleading Can One Be? December 29, 2007 10:33 pm (Pacific time)

A total of 9,488 servicemembers were separated for homosexual conduct for the decade 1994 through 2003. - - - - - - - - - - "During the 10 years following this declaration, the military services separated about 9,500 servicemembers for homosexual conduct under the statute. This represents about 0.40 percent of the 2.37 million members separated for all reasons during this period." http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-05-299. - - - - - - - - The average number of people leaving the service annually is 237,000. The number of gays serving averaged 5,900 (holding constant the .4% statistic.) The average number of gays released from service was 948 per year, or about 16 percent of the total. I would bet that some of the in INTELLIGENCE were released due to other factors than just being gay. The GAO indicates that the dismissals were due to CONDUCT. Keep it in your bedroom, and out of the showers, and they'll leave you alone??? [Source: http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda04-11.cfm]

Albert Marnell December 29, 2007 9:15 pm (Pacific time)

I just Googled Duncan Mansfield and Bleu Copas. It came up immediately.

Albert Marnell December 29, 2007 9:04 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson or facts, How did you find the article? What are the steps you need to take to get the http: address or did you keep Googling Duncan Mansfield until you found it? Just a question. We are all trying to learn how to do things faster.

Albert Marnell December 29, 2007 8:56 pm (Pacific time)

Goy or Goyem is not a proper term. It is an insult. Maybe 1000 years ago it wasn't but it sure as hell is now.

Albert Marnell December 29, 2007 8:54 pm (Pacific time)

http://www.feastofhateandfear.com/articles/from_aye.html This site should explain it.

Albert Marnell December 29, 2007 8:51 pm (Pacific time)

Wikipedia Goyem, It means cattle. I grew up in a heavily Jewish Neigborhood. It is used disparagingly. If you do not find it, something is really wrong and it is not with me.

facts December 29, 2007 3:55 pm (Pacific time)

Here's the link to the article. Any one of you could have googled it. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14052513/. Assuming the AP writer has verified his facts, although nowadays, assuming that may be a stretch for ANY journalist. Also wiki'd "goy". It does not mean "cattle": In the Torah/Hebrew Bible, goy and its variants appear over 550 times in reference to Israelites and to Gentile nations. The first recorded usage of goy occurs in Genesis 10:5 and applies innocuously to non-Israelite nations. The first mention in relation to the Israelites comes in Genesis 12:2, when God promises Abraham that his descendants will form a goy gadol ("great nation"). While the earlier books of the Hebrew Bible often use goy to describe the Israelites, the later ones tend to apply the term to other nations. Modern usage: As noted, in the above-quoted Rabbinical literature the meaning of the word "goy" shifted the Biblical meaning of "a people" which could be applied to the Hebrews/Jews as to others into meaning "a people other than the Jews". In later generations, a further shift left the word as meaning an individual person who belongs to such a non-Jewish people. In modern Hebrew and Yiddish the word goy is the standard term for a gentile. In Yiddish it is the only proper term for Gentile, and many bilingual English and Yiddish speakers do use it dispassionately.

Albert Marnell December 29, 2007 12:55 pm (Pacific time)

Neal, I do not know you but know that the only way to deal with someone like Jefferson is to say, "Your right Jefferson." "Your absolutely right." "Your always right." "I agree Jefferson".

Neal Feldman December 29, 2007 11:59 am (Pacific time)

Albert Marnell - Thomas/Jefferson is a delusional moron neocon partisan who is clearly a legend in his own mind and his delusional ravings and pathetically feeble attempts at ad hominem attacks show his is cracking up... as he viscerally lashes out at those who show him for the idiot he so clearly is. It is something someone should record to present to psychology students... textbook I think is the term for it. Ah well...

Albert Marnell December 29, 2007 11:26 am (Pacific time)

Jefferson, Contact Duncan Mansfield of the Associated Press or the GAO. If you don't believe the information, that is your right. I even gave you the name of the article and the date. I gave you other info. I can not and will not do anymore.

Jefferson December 29, 2007 8:35 am (Pacific time)

Marnell it appears that you have an ally in this feldman kid. That certainly would not be a choice I would make, but then I called you on your totally false statement, and since feldman is a vindictive child, let's prove to him that adults can debate in a more meaningful way. Up to you Marnell, give me a link to the data. I looked all over and there is no information out there as you so state...man up Marnell! Let's strive for some accurate data, not put out misinformation because you like the way it sounds and it fits into your fantasy world, when you do that you just spiral down to feldmans level, and that's a very dark place. Though feldman is dealing with something he has no control over...

Albert Marnell December 29, 2007 5:36 am (Pacific time)

Jefferson, I am believe that you are ROSENBERG!

Albert Marnell December 29, 2007 5:35 am (Pacific time)

Even statistics from the military are lies. Do you think that any military provides accurate information. They will only provide what they want for their own agenda. Any source of information can be attacked. That is one of the easiest things in the world to do.

Henry Ruark December 29, 2007 5:16 am (Pacific time)

Neal et al: Nonentity is nonentity, and it always amazes me how rapidly the real public will catch up with such as see fit to peddle such palaver over a channel open to sensitive and sensible readers, even if sometimes in short supply.

Albert Marnell December 29, 2007 5:15 am (Pacific time)

Jefferson, Prove that it is false. Prove that "Your" resource is better than mine. And if you want to know about accuracy in the media, google "Jane Akre" as you did with my name. I went to high school with her and this should teach you something about all mainstream media and the laws that do not govern news. You might be Rosenberg but Tim and Bonnie are probably too busy to bother with focusing only on you. Either that or you found a backdoor. Your "Long Island Ice Tea" comment does not impress me but shows how obsessive you are. Everytime you write your B.S. you prove to everyone what your "primary" resources are. A primary source is a document, speech, or other sort of evidence written, created or otherwise produced during the time under study. Primary sources offer an inside view of a particular event. Examples include: Original documents: autobiographies, diaries, e-mail, interviews, letters, minutes, news film footage, official records, photographs, raw research data, speeches Creative works: art, drama, films, music, novels, poetry Relics or artifacts: buildings, clothing, DNA, furniture, jewelry, pottery An Associated Press reporter is a primary source you fool! "Evidence written, created or otherwise produced during a specific time period". Primary sources can be discredited also such as a forged document. We all do the best with what we have in front of us. You think you have all the answers. Are you God? Did you ever wikipedia "Bilderberg" and the reality of their control over all governments? When you are in the military you are just being used by them whether you know it or not. The fact that you are not up to speed on them shows your ignorance.

Neal Feldman December 29, 2007 1:37 am (Pacific time)

Jefferson - You are completely unhinged. It is laughable to watch you flailing about as you try desperately to deny reality as your delusions come crashing in all around you. Ge gave his source. He need not provide a 'link' as such is not necessary. And your ludicrous ravings show you seem to think if it is on the internet (linked) it therefore must be true. What a nitwit you prove yourself to be. The source available to you but you refuse to look because you know what you will find... that it is you, not he, who is the liar. You are also the coward. And your pathetic attempts at taunts are laughably feeble as always. You are a sad little person who is utterly and completely pointless. Ah well...

Jefferson December 28, 2007 10:26 pm (Pacific time)

Marnell it was your falsified statement (Two million military dismissed!), and your evasiveness about providing a link proves it! Because you have "no" link to prove it, liar! Though maybe you've been drinking too many "Long Island Ice Teas"? You and a few others of similar ignorance could not have more of a basic misunderstanding of the situation...People when Marnell provides any type of data about the military, see if he provides a link to a primary source, though I'm convinced he has no idea what a primary source is, like the feldman kid. Opinions are fine, but he and posters of his ilk simply brush aside facts in favor of pursuing some moonbat agenda. When evaluating something, you should at the very least, have some experience in what your evaluating. Narcissistic girly boys...

Albert Marnell December 28, 2007 7:55 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson, Contact the General Accountablity Office yourself. Do you want me to dial the phone for you or write the letter? My source is credible and no matter what I show for documentation you will be dismissive about it.

Neal Feldman December 28, 2007 2:27 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson - Oh I don't care if you are a gentile or not. I just see you as a blistering idiot. Your attitude re 'combat vets' seems to be that of someone who wants/wanted to be one and thinks that is how they would think. As has been pointed out to you the vast majority of combat vets do NOT think as you seem to express. Not saying this conclusively disproves your claims but it sure does undermine them. The rest of your idiocy you express is what puts the final nails in the coffin of what was once your credibility, coward. You dislike the truth? Ah well...

Jefferson December 28, 2007 12:29 pm (Pacific time)

Marnell you mentioned "TWO MILLION" military personnel dismissed! What is your primary source link?! Note: There is only one primary source for this data Marnell! You have just exposed yourself Marnell! Let's try to be factual, you are starting to come off as someone like, well... Evasive Feldman, I assume by simply stating factual information about the war criminal nation of Israel, this does not fit the profile you want Gentiles to maintain (and what makes you think I'm a gentile?), is it statistics? As a combat veteran, what would be a statistically nil population (race/ethnic) be in terms of those who serve and who served in combat specialties (combat being the operative word)? I am finally starting to see people challenge this bs anti-Semite accusation when people simply point out factual information. The "Cry Wolf" scenario is coming to a close feldman, people are starting to understand who the real bigots are, and it's not the Gentiles or the Goys (look that word up people!). Suffice, you support what this criminal nation has done via your non-response. Thank you for being honest kid, way to finally man up! Good for you.

Neal Feldman December 28, 2007 11:55 am (Pacific time)

Jefferson - So now the neocon coward moves from anti-gay to antisemite in one incoherent longwinded diatribe. And your trying to call me 'evasive' is just typical of your type... take the opposite of reality abd repeat it claiming it is the truth. I must be the least evasive person here. I think that is what gets under the skin of skulking liars like yourself so much. I'm about as up front as they come. So keep up your pathetic attempts at taunting.. you just continue to prove yourself a lying fool. And fools are amusing, as you continue to be. And bigotry is not exactly conducive to 'unit cohesion'. so why is protecting bigots your goal instead of protecting the targets of their bigotry? The more you post the more you come across as an Aryan Nations/Skinhead type (or more likely wannabe) Ah well...

Albert Marnell December 28, 2007 11:24 am (Pacific time)

Jefferson, Unit cohesion is not based on sexual orientation. Where is it written?

Albert Marnell December 28, 2007 11:22 am (Pacific time)

Jefferson, Information is from Associated Press Writer, Duncan Mansfield, dated 07/27/06. Article was titled "Army Dismisses Gay Arabic Linguist." And "Goy" is offensive. It means cattle in Yiddish. You can also check out the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network: http://www.sldn.org/ I resent that you would think that I make things up. Maybe you should look in the mirror.

Neal Feldman December 28, 2007 10:55 am (Pacific time)

Albert - True enough though as to your last comment I guess it depends on how you define the terms. Do I believe in old warty crones flying around on broomsticks? No. Do I believe witches exist? Being Wiccan I think it is obvious that I do. I believe in natural forces. People have tried to personify natural forces to bring them into their sphere of understanding. I do not subscribe to such practices but I understand the activity. It does cloud up things though especially when metaphor becomes myth then becomes dogmatic belief system and then other unsupported concepts get cobbled on and pretty soon you have a religion.... based on misunderstood warped metaphors being masqueraded as facts. But as I believe Arthur C Clarke said (I'm pretty sure it was him) "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic (to those who do not understand it)". I think in many ways what you speak of at the end follows that line of thought. Ah well...

Jefferson December 28, 2007 10:24 am (Pacific time)

MARNELL you have a "primary resource" link to those numbers you provided, i.e. ,2 million soldiers dismissed between 1993 to 2004? You know some additional info like what the total was and the breakdown, e.g., normal discharge procedures, etc.? I mean you don't want to mislead people do you. Phillip you simply do not understand how the military system works with the brief time you were in during WWII and your limited experience/exposure, which by the way is what all non-career miltary personnel share or have in common. The last thing the military wants to do is to discriminate against anyone, especially when it come to race (note: there is racial parity in the officer corp. now, though this may actually hurt the military , as it has and does in civilian employment, i.e. , "if" standards are reduced to satisfy a quota, which is what affirmative action has evolved into, especially in our colleges and universities, and civil service employees (especially them!). Currently the majority of voters, when on the ballot, have voted to dissolve this racist program, or at least review it so it's based on a socio-economic basis). I served quite a while in the military and served in several combat actions. Many of my associates were career military going back before WWII, served during WWII, Korea and have friends still currently serving, including as private contractors. The military court-martial records are full of some pretty nasty behaviors by some real perverted scum, info that just does not get out to the public, which I believe it should, as it does when we have those who abuse other victims in civilian life. Bottom line for all of you to understand, though many of you will never get it! The "Don't ask, don't tell policy" will not be discontinued, even if some moonbat becomes president, in fact I predict that a more common sense policy of warning all potential enlistee's and officers that homosexual behavior will be an automatic prison offense, not an immediate discharge, e.g. , look at how many have received professional training, like medical school (know any Phil?)at taxpayer expense, and then got their discharge, many not having to repay the debt, though not always. By the way Marnell, there are many civilians involved in intelligence work (many are gay) and they make an excellent contribution to our nations defense, but the military is simply not going to accomodate..."unit cohesion" trumps! You should try to understand that, but you won't and frankly the military sees your opinion as worthy as the opinion of kids like feldman... So "evasive neal", no doubt the anti-American, anti-whatever spy, Pollard, a hero of yours kid? You support the criminal nation of Israel who have ruthlessly killed "real" Americans, still engage in lethal torture procedures, and continue to spy on my country, etc.? Someday I might tell you how patriots "lawfully" dealt with some wimpy anti-Americans who secured draft-deferrment's back in the 60's and later were taped bragging how they were killing Americans on the U.S. Liberty near a PSU watering-hole back in 1968: "Like shooting GOY in a barrel." Do you know people who use the most hateful word in the history of language: Goy?...these above self-acknowledged murderer's have all moved down the food chain (old age I assume, but not here in my country). All interlopers who cause injury to America should re-think about continuing to live here. You got a problem with wanting the enemy to live here "evasive neal?"

Albert Marnell December 28, 2007 4:38 am (Pacific time)

Neal, Some of it has to do with archaic attitudes and beliefs. People used to burn witches and gays and other vilified innocents. People are very superstitious and scared of the unknown. The term faggot comes from England. A faggot is a bundle of sticks. Somehow the term "faggot" became used disparagingly because they used to burn gay people alive as they did witches and warlocks. Using the word "faggot" comes from the burning of a bundle of sticks. The F-word was used as a way of making gay people less than human so that people would not feel for them anymore than a bundle of burning sticks. I don't know about you but I do not believe in witches, warlocks, devils, ghosts, spirits, angels etc. It is almost 2008 and some people still believe in that nonsense.

Neal Feldman December 27, 2007 10:21 pm (Pacific time)

But Al... the bigots must be protected at any cost! What is it? You have no idea what it means to be in the military or something? LOL... I'm sorry I cannot mimic Thomas (Jefferson) and their ilk any more it hurts laughing that hard. Ah well...

Albert Marnell December 27, 2007 10:00 pm (Pacific time)

Dr. Phil, A pedophile is a pedophile. The majority of children that are molested are young girls. The people that molest them are pedophiles. I would not categorize them as gay or straight. When people focus on the church scandal of recent years they do a disservice to young girls by taking the spotlight away from them. People that focus on pedophile priests have an agenda of linking them subconsciously to gay men. A pedo is a pedo and that has nothing to do with either orientation. Separately from 1993 to 2004, the General Accountability Office dismissed about 2 million soldiers, sailors and Marines. Less then one half of one percent were gay. The GAO noted that the majority of gay and lesbian service members had critical abilities including important language skills such as proficiency in Arabic. Read about a sergeant by the name of Bleu Copas who was dismissed from the U.S. Army, even though he never told his superiors he was gay and his accuser was never identified. The cost to the Pentagon (taxpayers) for all discharging and replacement goes way into the billions. I would think that they would like to save a few hundred million by ending this policy of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". How about a policy of "We Do Not Give A Flying Crap As Long As You Do Your Job And Stay Professional"?

[Return to Top]

Homosexuals? The Pizzen Controversy

Quick Links

DINING

MUST SEE SALEM

AUCTIONS - APPRAISALS

CONSTRUCTION SERVICES

ONLINE SHOPPING

Advertise with Salem-News